Large Scale Central

Rail Joint Spacing

Track and Trestles
#15

Thanks for your thoughts guys,

I didn’t mean to cause an argument. My situation is unique compared to a ground level railway since it’s at waist level so the track needs to stay in the relative center of the baseboard so the steamers won’t fall off. I’ve been carefully observing the layout the last two days while our weather ranged from 68F at night to 92F, mostly sunny with a rain deluge yesterday afternoon which dropped the temperature 14 degrees, typical Florida summer weather.

When I attached the composite top (Lowes ChoiceDek fascia board) I was careful to space the board segments up to 1/8" to allow for expansion. In the heat of the day none of the gaps disappeared completely. My layout is relatively small, a 10’ x 20’ oval with a mainline run of about 50’ and a 54" radius 180 deg. curve at each end. The straights are short, about 10’, and 20" of that is a Sunset Valley turnout. The only place I really need a gap is the 30" lift out on one end which allows access to the inside of the layout by sliding off the joiners and lifting the removable section upwards. That is also the only place where the rail needs to be fastened down so it stays in position to be reconnected when trains are run.

One saving grace may be that the screen roof of the birdcage blocks some of the sunlight. The most common use of birdcages around here is to cover swimming pools and I was told that a heater (solar or propane) is almost always needed because warm swimming conditions can not be obtained by direct solar gain alone. Second is that my orientation, even with the sun high in the sky, puts half the birdcage in shade by 11 am and the rest later in the afternoon.

It was interesting to read Pete Lassen’s experiment in the thread Bob Cope referred to where he took a 6’ length of AML 332 brass rail outside in 108F sunlight and it expanded 1/16" Based on that and your input I’ve devised a plan for my layout. I can afford some distortion on the end curves since the track center is about 8" in from the table edge so I will screw the center of the ties to the table on either side of the lift out to maintain the relative position of the rail I will also screw down the ties on either side of the two turnouts to keep those connections in place. Then I will put a screw half way between those two points to keep the rail centered on the table. On the remaining end I will not fasten the ties down allowing the track to float some on the table. And, as with the three portable live steam show layouts I’ve built, (approximately the same size as my fixed layout) I’ll check the security of the slide-on rail joiners at each running session. I don’t plan to electrify the layout so jumpers will not be necessary.

Establishing the track curves with the Train Li bender and cutting the rail joints by eye the joints do not line up perfectly and some small gaps have appeared between rail ends. I have not observed much change in those gaps though consistently hotter temperatures are on the horizon for our area. As they occur I’ll continue to observe and adjust as necessary. I’ll report later in the summer after I see what effect the higher temperatures have on the baseboard and rail.

#16

Greg Elmassian said:

Are you just wanting to argue, or actually wanting information?

I’ll go on the latter, for the benefit of at least others that want information.

First of all, our hot and cool are vastly different, so I hope that all reading take this into consideration.

So, if I lay track when “very cold” in San Diego, I will leave a gap. In the height of the summer I butt the rail as tightly as possible. Other times, snug or close is fine.

So maybe using that criteria, if you laid track in November or December when it is 50 degrees, perhaps the average person would leave gaps, if their summers could exceed 110 degrees AND they did not have a lot of curves.

Also, perhaps Tom’s situation is also affected by the composite boards, which, being a lot of plastic, can expand a lot more than wood. I have a friend that used a ladder system using dark brown polypropylene, and when exposed to the sun, moved/expanded a lot.

John, you have a lot of curves, and I would guess that MOST of the year, you would not put in gaps.

But this thread is not about John in the Desert, but Tom in Florida, so I’m trying to address that.

Greg

p.s. maybe I said something a long time ago, but as I continue through life, I do learn and can change opinions… not stagnate

Greg,

It doesn’t appear to me that anyone was arguing and if you re-read it twice (as you suggest) before posting, you will find that the information was already given? Seems to me from many recent threads that the only one looking for an argument is you?

#17

Tom Bowdler said:

Thanks for your thoughts guys,

I didn’t mean to cause an argument.

Tom,

You didn’t…all you caused was a valid discussion which has been discussed more than a few times over the years. Seems like you are covered with the added decking on the curves and from my personal findings the track will push in the curves. Yes, I am track powered however the main reason for hard solid connections it reliability not power. Whether you clamp it ,solder it or weld it (like the 1:1 does) I’m a firm believer in the long floating sections of rail in the ties like the 1:1 does and Jack Verducci recommended it years ago and he is a battery guy I believe.

Gaps are for nothing but clank if that is what you want. Would like to see pictures of the new venture if you have time and enjoy the hobby as it’s a great hobby !

#18

Rooster, I guess you missed this even though you read it twice:

Greg said “I’ve definitely had joints close when things got hot AND track was laid when cool. I see this mainly on straights. Curves not so much. Also have seen differences between slip on joiners and clamps.”

So the next cool spell do you regap? Or do you let them pull apart as they will?

I did lay my track in a cooler spell, not for gaps but to align my track in the middle of the right away, knowing it’s preference to move laterally, but at all times without gaps.

In a time long ago he agreed, but old habits apparently are kicking in again…

Obviously you need to read THREE times, or just mind your own business, John can speak for himself just fine.

Greg

#19

" Rooster " said:

Greg,

It doesn’t appear to me that anyone was arguing and if you re-read it twice (as you suggest) before posting, you will find that the information was already given? Seems to me from many recent threads that the only one looking for an argument is you?

Greg,

I rest my case !

#20

Tom, here is what has happened in the year my track has been down, nothing! I did about half of it leaving a very small gap and some I butted together as tight as can be, I live in the Phoenix area and my track floats on ballast and there has been almost no noticeable movement. This was out all last summer. I have a couple of 40 foot straight sections but most of my track has some curve to it. The basic shape is a large kidney bean shape so that may be why I had little to no moving. About half of the track get the full sun and half is unde the shade of 2 trees. I would try it as you have said, keep an eye on it on a few hot days and adjust from there.

#21

Rooster, I am enjoying the hobby and have since the late 80s. In that time I’ve built two garden railways, three portable live steam show tracks and an outdoor raised live steam layout that now resides in PA. For at least 20 years I’ve been totally live steam and have spread the word near and far. Were I more computer savvy I might be able to post pics of my “retirement” layout here in Florida but at least I can run my trains at home now vs going 20+ miles to the local ride-on railroad where I helped build a Ga 1 track last year.

Pete, I appreciate your report. I am interested to see how my little layout fares, so far so good, but higher temps are in the offing as summer progresses. Hopefully it won’t get as warm as in your area but our humidity is higher.

We’ll be travelling back to our former home in NY soon and I probably will find some more railroad “treasures” that I don’t have room for here. Stay tuned for more opportunities to increase your stash of railway goodies.

Again, I appreciate the input from experienced outdoor railroaders,

Tom

#22

So this is being argumentative?

“So the next cool spell do you regap? Or do you let them pull apart as they will?”

I thought I was being curious…

#23

Honestly John, it’s really sort of confrontive (you know darn well no one is going to go out and regap rails just to regap them!), and not curious if you are already telling people what the result is “let them pull apart as they will” You are stating your opinion, not really asking out of curiousity.

You have your opinion and observations, great. You state what you believe, great. Pretending to be curious while just telling people they are wrong is pretty transparent. This is just like the Todd Brody post where he offers to design a locomotive cradle for $1100 and ask when I will send dxf files.

Maybe a few people don’t see this, but when there’s history it becomes clear.

Funny you won’t allow me to refine my opinion/position over the years, as more people add their experience.

I added what I thought was helpful, the fact that your rails are stainless seems pretty relevant. The fact that your track is almost all curved seems relevant.

Greg

#24

Tom,

with temperature variations of up to 50°F. and a nailable/screwable underground, like your composite board, you might want to try my method.

for the brass, not to “work”, get kinky and pushed outside, when i lay track at at a median temperature, i put a creditcard between railends.

under your screening this one mm should compensate the “stretching” of about one foot length of track. longer pieces of track will still push sideways.

on my layout consisting mainly of one-foot pieces of track, i nail down each section at only one of its ends (3rd sleeper), so that there is just one nail near any given joint. - no kinks, no outward movement of curves on one-foot pieces of track. just expanding and contracting gaps. and, since the LGB-joiners can move only about 2mm against the sleeper webbing, the gaps stay more or less similar in size.

so, if the circumstances are: short pieces of track (many, but smaller gaps), LGB joiners (fishplates), fixing of sleepers - then it works out.

while i don’t remember having had to push two foot track pieces back, i have to push back the four and five foot pieces back into line.

but even there because of one nail near every joint, it is easy, to get them back exactly, where they shall be.

#25

I see that the averages for The Villages Florida range from 48 to 91 degrees. Probably add 10 degrees for rail temp in hot sun and say 48 to 101 degrees, so the 50 degree estimate by Korm is remarkably spot on.

You have a mild temperature compared to San Diego (gets a bit colder) and definitely John in Vail where the averages are 38 to 97 air temp.

Since your low temperature is not very cold, I’d tightly butt the joints unless you are having unseasonably frosty weather.

Greg

#26

We didn’t move here for “unseasonably frosty weather”,

There was plenty of that in western NY. Last winter we had three hard freezes, this past winter none. I guess that’s normal climactic variation for anywhere on the planet. Except for a few “fill in” pieces my rail sections are 5’ or 6’ long so I wonder if that increases or decreases the amount of thermal expansion. Also less bulk of code 250 vs code 332 could also be an influence since I assume the expansion occurs in all dimensions not just length though that is the gist of our discussion.

Korm’s method is how I’ve always done rail gaps though usually by eye vs measurement. That’s how the composite was done as well with angled joints cut with a rented compound miter saw so the spacing between composite pieces is inconsistent.

I’ve been thinking about an experiment that might give an answer in my situation. Since we’ll be away for a few weeks the cumulative change could be observed by placing painters tape under some of the ties and marking the outline of the ties on the tape. When we return it will be easy to see if any rail expansion/contraction induced movement of the tie strips occurred. Since I need to cut joints at the lift out section I will do so and screw the ties down in that location. I’ll then close the gaps as much as I can and wait to see what happens.

#27

Tom, should be no difference in the lengths, but it will provide fewer opportunities for gaps, which is good in my opinion.

Expansion does indeed go in all directions, but the linear expansion of 250 vs 332 is the same.

Your experiment may be interesting, but it will be measuring the expansion of the ties, which may or may not be the same as the expansion of the rails. I suggest marking the rail ends too.

Of course, the substrate underneath will also expand and contract too… but what you want to know is the difference in expansion between the underlayment and the “track”, i.e. if there is a great difference between them.

For example a friend had concrete curbs poured for his right of way, and then glued the LGB track to it. Well the brown plastic ties and rails expanded much more than the light grey concrete, and basically tore the rails from the ties.

All of this really is related to whether or not you get gaps in your rails, but the expansion of the ties and the underlayment is sort of secondary to if your rails develop gaps.

You can go all over the map with this thinking. Butt the rails tightly, loosely connect the ties every so often to your underlayment, I am sure you will be fine.

Did you mention what type of rail joiners and track you are using? (I went to the first post, Accucraft code 250 brass, but no mention of the joiners)

Greg

#28

I’m using the slip on rail joiners. With all the tracks I’ve built they’ve worked just fine especially the portables which made setup faster. I’ve never felt the need for more secure joints. Since I run live steam they only need to hold the rail together not pass electrons.

#29

Well I was curious, to the point of perhaps seeing a way to accomplish your desired results; tight at one end and looser at the other, then you might control which way the growth goes.

It was a valid question since it was important to mention it. It has been stated elsewhere, that gaps can migrate until a gap forms that separates the rails. So I wondered if you set the gaps each year.

I did mention my SS in my 1st post on the subject, last line.

Please stop telling people what I am thinking, it’s not your job. It has nothing to do with your running feud with Todd.

#30

OK, I will take our feud at face value ha ha… OK, taking you response at face value: if the joiner was tight, like welded to one rail, and slips on the other I don’t see how it would control gaps, it could control the joiner, but most track has the tie strips limiting the joiner from migrating away from the ends of the rails. It might have benefit in conductivity, but we are talking unpowered rails here.

Over time, it has been shown that even a small difference in friction between joiners and the track on the substrate or in gravel makes it impossible to predict where the gaps open. Originally this was also related to the theory that removing all the screws that secured the rail to the ties in Aristo track would solve issues and even things out.

Again, just small differences in friction negated that idea. It does not appear to hurt, but removing screws does not eliminate nor distribute gaps evenly.

Like many other things in nature, it’s the path of least resistance that get’s the movement.

Greg

#31

John Caughey said:

It has nothing to do with your running feud with Todd.

I rest my case once again.

#32

In Chelmsford the temperature generally falls between 0 and 100 so I generally like to lay track when it is around 50. I have however put down track below freezing as well as well into the 80s.

I normally never put in an intentional gap between rails other then electrical gaps.

Part of the reason that this works is that each section of track (other then turnouts) has a pair of 12 gauge feeders that go to bus wires under the 5 1/2 inch deep gravel roadbed. Once the gravel sets up the center of the track section is fixed and any flexing occurs only at the ends. And any expansion of contraction works itself out.

This method had worked very well for over 30 years of operation.

Stan

#33

In a similar manner, when I re-bend Aristo track, I remove all the screws except one per rail at the center of the section. This works well for bending tighter or looser. I’ve fixed the “center”.

Greg

p.s. shut up rooster

#34