Large Scale Central

Pressrelease from Märklin, Inc Waukesha, Wisconsin

General Discussion
#21

the news of current U.S. prototype, now manufactured by Marklin, was released several years ago on another forum by the ‘Yardmaster’ on the B’mann forum, back when he had connections with the old LGB of A. Prices on current Chinese U.S. prototype is the same as prices back in 2004. How do I know, well I purchased the items back then, but alas, they were German made then and not ‘Made in China’. From around 2003 onwards they came with decoders, so basically the same as current Chinese production as regards equipment level. I would like a few F7’s, but then it is a little oversized for typical standard gauge from other manufacturers.

Armchair modellers bitch about increasing prices, but in reality prices are basically what they were seven or eight years ago (pre 2006 tits up LGB murder).

#22

Vic,
many think of the Porter and how relatively cheap it was. In reality, most Porters were Lehmann ‘Toytrain’ brand, generally taken from starter sets. Cheapest that I paid for a new Lehmann Porter was $29.00 and most expensive was $125.00. This was circa 2004/2005. At the time, the LGB branded Porter was factory decoder equipped and sold for around $300.00. LGB Porters were never cheap from my recollection. Toytrain Porters were always cheap.

#23

“Prices on current Chinese U.S. prototype is the same as prices back in 2004.”

I don’t recall F7s being $1,000.00 in 2004…
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/426-20576

#24
Curmudgeon said:
Ah. Remember the 2018D, no sound, but oh, they had smoke......couldn't find them for less than, what, $495 back then.....in 1985 dollars.......now they've got sound and all them neato electronics built in the clueless who cou;dn't do it themselves demanded......and that wonderful company....131 years.....what happened to them again?
What happened to them? Investment bankers!!!
#25
John Joseph Sauer said:
"Prices on current Chinese U.S. prototype is the same as prices back in 2004."

I don’t recall F7s being $1,000.00 in 2004…
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/426-20576


This one I don’t understand. Why is the “blue one” almost twice the cost of the “red one”? I really want the blue but will not spend a G-note on it. The new release of the “red” can be had for under $600.00. So is blue paint that expensive? The “red” does seem to run close to what I remember the pre-Walthers ones cost.

As it is I keep putting off the purchase of a Santa Fe F7 hoping the blue-bonnet will drop to the reasonable range soon.

#26

I wont complain about price. I’ve always been of the opinion that you get what you pay for.

I am sill into HO and the prices of quality locomotives is expensive. I just purchased a Blackstone C-19 and paid around $500 for it. Granted this came with sound and DCC, but it is still expensive. Compare that to a Large scale loco with the same features and then scale it up. It figures out to around $2,200. Only loco I spent that much on was an Accucraft C-19 and I got 4 free stock cars and a caboose. Still a deal.

#27
Tim Brien said:
Vic, many think of the Porter and how relatively cheap it was. In reality, most Porters were Lehmann 'Toytrain' brand, generally taken from starter sets. Cheapest that I paid for a new Lehmann Porter was $29.00 and most expensive was $125.00. This was circa 2004/2005. At the time, the LGB branded Porter was factory decoder equipped and sold for around $300.00. LGB Porters were never cheap from my recollection. Toytrain Porters were always cheap.
The difference was at least that they OFFERED a basic affordable version of the engine thru the Toytrain line. ;)

I DO NOT want sound, DO NOT want any decoders, and mostly DO NOT want to be forced to pay for things I have no use or interest in. All that electronic stuff does for guys like me is just raise the prices. Thats where my beef come from, I am no longer offered the Toyota, if I want something I’m being forced to buy the Lexus.
:frowning:

#28
John Joseph Sauer said:
Curmudgeon said:
Ah. Remember the 2018D, no sound, but oh, they had smoke......couldn't find them for less than, what, $495 back then.....in 1985 dollars.......now they've got sound and all them neato electronics built in the clueless who cou;dn't do it themselves demanded......and that wonderful company....131 years.....what happened to them again?
What happened to them? Investment bankers!!!
And why did they need investment bankers?
#29

Are the users who don’t want the bells and whistles a majority or a minority?
Manufacturers will go with the majority.

And besides, if all LGB is going to do is get out the re-paint rattle can, who cares?
Not me, for one.

#30

That really was never the issue. The issue is one rabble-rouser who wants all that crap in our locomotives, pushed one manufacturer to do it, at least, and near as we can tell, got the small minoity to pester the manufacturers to go that way.
Look at the Ames Super Socket for one.
Soundtraxx told me on the phone one reason they stopped the Sierra line was all the people who came up to them at a convention demanding decoders.
Soundtraxx was quite proud of the new replacement for the Sierra…until I questioned them…and it’s not. It’s dcc, through and through, not usable for anything else.
I had a Quasinami once…landfill, now. For anything but dcc, it was worthless.
Dave

#31

It would seem that some folks like an interface that enables them to easily install Battery R/C, DCC, etc… into a large scale product (and not have to pay someone to do it for them).
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,20041.0.html

#32

And then, you lower your expectations to the lowest common denominator…“plug and play”. If folks haven’t the skill to do it themselves, they need to take up knitting.
I always advocated (in smaller scales) that a new person in the hobby should build a steam locomotive from a kit. Teaches them how to assemble (and later repair) valve gear, how to ensure (and correct for issues with) free-rolling chassis, painting, worm mesh, basic wiring.
And the “old hats” continously berated that suggestion, because they had done it and they didn’t feel they should have to do it again (go figure that logic out).
Then you get moron designers (and those who want to “help”) not have clue one on things like how are you going to fit balanced batteries with that whacking huge socket in place?
I’ve got a box full of those sockets…some I removed, some others removed, as they are absolutley stupid. Wrong place, too big, uneeded level of PRC electronics.
Try to tell someone who bought one of the lgb Mogus with MTS built into the board with sound inside the locomotive…that any PW inputs fry the board, $150 plus shipping to fix, not covered under warranty…so we gutted it and put in a sound system that actually worked.
You ask, “Do you ever intend to run dcc or mts?”
“No.”
“Then why did you buy this one instead of the cheaper unit without all this garbage?”

“duh…”

#33
Curmudgeon said:
And then, you lower your expectations to the lowest common denominator..."plug and play". If folks haven't the skill to do it themselves, they need to take up knitting. I always advocated (in smaller scales) that a new person in the hobby should build a steam locomotive from a kit. Teaches them how to assemble (and later repair) valve gear, how to ensure (and correct for issues with) free-rolling chassis, painting, worm mesh, basic wiring. And the "old hats" continously berated that suggestion, because they had done it and they didn't feel they should have to do it again (go figure that logic out). Then you get moron designers (and those who want to "help") not have clue one on things like how are you going to fit balanced batteries with that whacking huge socket in place? I've got a box full of those sockets...some I removed, some others removed, as they are absolutley stupid. Wrong place, too big, uneeded level of PRC electronics. Try to tell someone who bought one of the lgb Mogus with MTS built into the board with sound inside the locomotive....that any PW inputs fry the board, $150 plus shipping to fix, not covered under warranty.....so we gutted it and put in a sound system that actually worked. You ask, "Do you ever intend to run dcc or mts?" "No." "Then why did you buy this one instead of the cheaper unit without all this garbage?"

“duh…”


No wonder the ranks are dwindling with these types of attitudes!

#34

The ranks are dwindling because we have catered to that lowest common denominator. Nobody has clue one about wheel gauge, how to check it, or on some locomotives how to correct it. It’s those “high priced” specialists that spend 2.5 hours per truck on a six-wheel diesel truck re-shimming them to work.
Nobody has a clue how to re-dedicate wires in a plug assembly…so you see a huge new plug floating in the air between loco and tender.
It is why I’ve gone back to a craftsman scale, where folks know what to do and are willing to do it.
Think “cab chatter” if you want to see how far down the hobby has fallen.

#35
Curmudgeon said:
The ranks are dwindling because we have catered to that lowest common denominator. Nobody has clue one about wheel gauge, how to check it, or on some locomotives how to correct it....It is why I've gone back to a craftsman scale, where folks know what to do and are willing to do it. Think "cab chatter" if you want to see how far down the hobby has fallen.
That's kind of why I've been experimenting with the feasibility of 1.948" gauge for 1/29. I can set my own standards and stick to them! Yes it takes a bit of work, and time. Oh no I can't run 45mm any more.... :0 Time to break out the scratch building supplies...
#36

It’s all perspective. You want a niche hobby or any other enterprise to grow or at least sustain, you have to sell product. If you are successful, the products that sell well and make you some money help finance other products, some of which will be aimed at the more “sophisticated” participants and will not sell at that large a volume.

This hobby is about enjoying what you like. I don’t have time to build everything or modify everything - some day I will again, but not now. So I will spend the bucks on the things I like, the things that are simple for me to add stuff to etc. If it means plug and play - so be it at this time.

I’ve been on both sides of the hobby over the years. My 2 cents.

#37

John ,
this forum is a worldwide reaching forum. The list price locally for each ‘A’ and ‘B’ unit was over $1000 in 2004 in Australia (that was over $2000 for a combined ‘A’/‘B’ unit). Current ‘retail’ is around $700 per unit in the States (approx. $680.00 Australian dollars), with ‘Buy it Now’ street prices down to $375.00 for the ‘B’ unit and $495 for the ‘A’ unit (Hans Kahl, Gold Coast Station in LA).

   In 2004,  my 'A' and 'B' units were costing me around $700 - $800 ($1100 for U.P. and red warbonnet) inclusive from the States.  This  compares with current listings,  with around $1100 being normal 'retail',  but around $900 from specialist eBay and LGB (Marklin) dealers (red warbonnet).

   As stated earlier,  prices are really not much more than eight years ago.  Of cause,  if we include the 2006/2007 'dumping' prices,  then current prices are definately higher.  However, I am looking at retail prices both then (early 2000's) and current day.  The 2012 LCE will sell for $250.00 which is actually far cheaper than when it was last retailed in 2004.  Look to the locomotive sets with loco, multiple rolling stock and track.  These to me represent the best value in many years.
#38
John Joseph Sauer said:
............ No wonder the ranks are dwindling with these types of attitudes!
Happy New Year to all your incarnations. :) :D :lol:

Some time ago I mentioned the title of a book: Empire of Illusion – the end of literacy and the triumph of spectacle by Chris Hedges (ISBN 978-0-307-39847-5 A very good book, but you need to be careful, it cuts right to the chase and adresses the root of the problem - just like Dave did in his post.

#39

Tim :wink:

You have to do an actual price comparison complete with copies of invoices etc. etc.; short of that the price will always be too high no matter what. As Dave wrote some should take up knitting, which reminds me, my equal half mentioned recently that watching the locals knit pains her terribly (they apparently lack a lot of technique). My recommendation: don’t watch them! :lol:

#40

HJ,
I feel that even evidence would not be acceptable. However, assuming a rational audience and not simply relying on memories, I checked the 2003 LGB catalogue and price list at the time. The red warbonnet F7 ‘A’ and ‘B’ units each sold retail in Australia for $1069.75 (part #20570 and #20582). That is well over $2000.00 for a combined set. These had decoder and sound, so equipment level compares favourably with today’s product. Highest current price seen to date in the States, is a Marklin dealer with the ‘A’ and ‘B’ unit over $1700.00. This dealer is known for full retail pricing.

 Now, as previously stated, Hans Kahl had a red warbonnet 'Buy it Now' for  $375.00 and an 'A' unit for $495.00.  These are current eBay listings, however, a bid has been placed on the 'B' unit at $299.00, so the 'Buy it Now' is no longer active.  The 'A' unit is still available though.