Large Scale Central

Planning signals for your railway

General Discussion
#2

I think it depends on what you want the signals to do. If you just want some red and green lights changing when trains pass by, that’s pretty easy and you dont really need much software to do it. There are signal kits you can get that will do this out of the box. Z Stuff has signals that will do this. But this isnt a true signal system.

Its completely possible to have the same kind of signal system that the other scales have, with things like occupancy detection, switch position, block protection, etc. Its just a matter of how much you want to do and how patient you are about fiddling until you get it right. The OpenLCB developers have been attacking this problem for a while, though there are only a couple of us in LS. And there are some vendors out there with hardware you can buy. RRCirKits has a bunch of NMRA LCC hardware now. I’ve been using various development hardware pieces for a number of years now. One guy just released a shield that fits on the Nucleo F091RC boards, and I’ve ordered a bunch, so we’re getting more power than with Arduino-based boards.

I’d suggest downloading the latest version of JMRI, and dive into the tutorials on how to set up a virtual signal system for a basic layout. You can get a handle for how it will be to implement. Then you can start reading about hardware and decide how you want to proceed.

#3

Thank Bob, I mean ultimately it will probably just be them changing color when something passes by because its not easy to do a proper signal system out doors. I mean I know people are developing programming but nobody offers a system that is weather proof that can be used outdoors. While I may not be doing a full proper signal system I would like to use maybe the right type of signal types at locations. I mean sure you use a single search light signal on a single rrun of track but say I have two main lines that switch off to a branch line what type of signal would be used? Is it a dual search light signal?

#4

Joseph Lupinski said:

Thank Bob, I mean ultimately it will probably just be them changing color when something passes by because its not easy to do a proper signal system out doors. I mean I know people are developing programming but nobody offers a system that is weather proof that can be used outdoors. While I may not be doing a full proper signal system I would like to use maybe the right type of signal types at locations. I mean sure you use a single search light signal on a single rrun of track but say I have two main lines that switch off to a branch line what type of signal would be used? Is it a dual search light signal?

At a minimum, at a switch (interlocking) you would have a two-head signal.

More info than you can possibly want here:

http://www.railroadsignals.us/basics/basics1.htm

#5

South Bend Signal makes large scale signals , grade crossings, etc that run on 9 volt batteries and work good. The signals stay green until a train passes by and then turn to red then yellow and then back to green. They are not waterproof but they are easily removed. Just pick them up and turn it off and bring it inside.

#6

Bob, in looking at that site it seems like I could do whatever I want to do really, every railroad used a somewhat different system and there doesn’t seem like there is a set rule of well if you have this then this signal would be before it. Examples would be say a double crossover or diverting track to another branch or mainline this type signal would be used. While it be nice to do proper signaling it not exactly easy to execute and this does allow me to use other types of signals on my railway.

#7

Mike I have one of their signal bridges I use on our clubs layout and are nice and will probably use some of them but sadly I don’t think his sensor works well in outdoor environment and have to look at other options.

#8

I’ve some experience with them, they are quirky outdoors. They also will take some care for weatherproofing the electronics inside.

Greg

#9

Greg I am with you I just wish someone would come up with a good weatherproof option.

#10

Joseph Lupinski said:

Greg I am with you I just wish someone would come up with a good weatherproof option.

That’s why I’m building signals out of 3/8 steel tubing and fender washers.

#11

Bob, understood but real issue isn’t the signals themselves as a good sensor to get them to function properly and do so in all weather. That seems to be the thing that no one has tackled.

#12

I needed a true signal system to actually control operations. The small system I built is controlled by the dispatcher. No high tech stuff, just simple DPDT switches in the control tower. The signal heads are made from simple plastic conduit parts. They are not to scale, and don’t much look like real signals…but they work. The main problem was to get the train crews to obey the signals !!

All wiring is done with simple multi-paired cable…much of it from old telephone installations. We used LED’s…

The system is in its second year of operations, having gone through a Winter, and also a major track/roadbed rebuild.

There may be some pictures on the OVGRS web page at: www.ovgrs.org/

Fred Mills

#13

I used a relay as a current sensor for my automatic reverse loops. The same thing could be done for signals. Then the only thing out in the weather would be wires, and the relay would be tucked inside where it wants to be.

#14

Joseph Lupinski said:

Bob, understood but real issue isn’t the signals themselves as a good sensor to get them to function properly and do so in all weather. That seems to be the thing that no one has tackled.

I’ve been testing standard NCE BD20’s for detection, and they seem to work well (caveat: DCC). I house them, plus an Arduino and associated hardware, in a section of PVC column with a PVC cap glued on it, painted up like an equipment shed. The larger installation at Burke is inside the yard office building.

So far no issues, but I’m still fleshing out the system itself, and I do take the parts in for the winter.

#15

Hi Bob, If you are having your open house this year I will have to take a look at it. Only issue though is then that means you have to be using track power which not sure if I will do that or if someone is using a battery operated train on your layout it won’t detect it.

#16

Sensors are the easy part and can be a simple piece of rail long enough to squeeze between two insulators. This is the basis for the Tortoise Bump Accident Sentinal System (Bump A.S.S.) that makes my trains wait for each other at the 60 degree crossing.

The timing is done with a 555 chip and the circuit is very simple. You can run the whole thing off the track power if you regulate it to 5 or 6 volts, or it can run off batteries (4 AAs would go a long time).

Aristocraft was comtemplating coming out with a signal system based on my concept and I even did a prototype for Lewis Polk. If you are handy with a soldering iron and this is something you would like to persue, I can provide more detail.

These are done with a bi-color LED, brass fender washer, a brass tube, some cement, and a small “Dixie cup.”

Here you can see “Casey Joan” next to one of my raised signals. Again, a brass fender washer, a brass tube, a piece of “hardware cloth” cut to size, and a bi-color LED.

#17

Todd any pics of the sensor itself? Trying to understand how it senses.

#18

At one time there were plenty hosted by LSOL.

Take two Aristocraft/LGB insulated rail joiners and cut a section of track just long enough to fill the gap between them. Solder a “lead” wire to the piece of rail and sandwich it between them. Put a jumper wire around this section to connect the two tracks together so you don’t loose continuity along the rails.

OK, for simplicity here…, put the + lead of a 6 volt battery to the track on either side of the sensor (could also use the track power here regulated). Put the lead wire from the “sensor” to a 6 volt relay. Put the battery - to the other relay pole.

Now…, when any metal wheel touches the “sensor,” it also touches the track around this section and sends a pulse to the relay. The relay closes and this starts the 555 chip doing its thing. This works even better with engines and lighted cars because the make contact with the sensor as long as the wheel is on the sensor track, and not just spanning the gaps.

If you look very close, you can see one of these sensors in the picture just below the marshmallow eggs on the right.

Here you can see a sensor on the near rail just to the left of the tank and right of the left electrial plug.

#19

Can you give a close up of one Todd?? It will make more sense to me when I Sw what you are describing

#20

Can you give a close up of one Todd?? It will make more sense to me when I Sw what you are describing

#21

Can’t get much simpler than this.

When a metal wheel spans the gap, it triggers the relay . Ergo, each wheel triggers it twice and an engine or lighted car triggers it once for as long as it touches the center portion, so there is a lot of redundancy and this assures activation.