What confuses me is what dog in the fight does Bachmann have by admitting or not admitting that early Porters had skates? Are they afraid that this ‘new’ information about a 20 year product will cause sales on NOS, or current production to drop because a run or two of Porters had skates to pick up power?
I get that they control the forum, but apparently 20 years of history isn’t enough to say that a product was produced differently than product now?
That’s not the point, it’s zeroing out contention, arguments, negative comments. Their expert was “attacked” and they fought back.
There’s another forum where there was even less tolerance, and stuff just disappeared, and people banned, even threatened with legal action.
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
That’s not the point, it’s zeroing out contention, arguments, negative comments. Their expert was “attacked” and they fought back.
There’s another forum where there was even less tolerance, and stuff just disappeared, and people banned, even threatened with legal action.
Greg
Greg,
I understand the point about Bachmann (and others) wanting to control the forums with a tight fist. But my question is more of a practical one.
Why does it matter if Bachmann admits/doesn’t admit that early production Porters had skates?
What/why is Bachmann worried about a 20+ year old product?
Is it because Bachmann thinks customers might confuse a 20+ year old product with NOS?
Is Bachmann worried that these early production runs make recent runs look bad?
Is it simply because they don’t know and don’t want to admit that someone else might have more information about their product?
Why would skates be included in the first place? I would think that they were included for electrical pickups but as production/customer testing proved that they were not needed so they where dropped?
As you said Greg, it seems like kind of a stupid thing for Bachmann to censor out. So what’s the reason other than because they can, for Bachmann to censor this type of information.
Again, Bachmann does not care.
They care that THEIR EXPERT, who is not a Bachmann employee, was ATTACKED, and they defended him by censoring posts.
Like the Aristo forum, it was the image presented, and they don’t want any negativism on the forum. If Bill C. had only said, “wow, I never saw that, thanks for the information” it would have all been over.
I cannot tell you how many times I was lectured by the “faithful” that we should NEVER say anything negative about the hobby or products publicly because it hurts the hobby. History has shown us that “good window dressing” does not guarantee a company’s success.
But, I will defend to the end Bachmann’s right to do whatever they want on their forum. It’s just that we all have to realize it is the forum’s owner’s discretion to impose ANY rules and “flavor” they want. If you want a more “open” forum, then come here, or start one.
I agree, it’s surprising and seems wrong to censor posts, but remember it was taken as an ATTACK to BACHMANN’s integrity and peaceful existence, and “good looks”.
Regards, Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
Again, Bachmann does not care.
They care that THEIR EXPERT, who is not a Bachmann employee, was ATTACKED, and they defended him by censoring posts.
Regards, Greg
So, you’re saying that if Bachmann’s ‘expert/historian’ was willing to accept the idea that sliders where on some production models, then Bachmann wouldn’t have censored the information?
I’m not sure how providing information is attacking someone/something but they have the right to do what ever they want.
Let’s not get to hypothetical, but what if Bachmann had been willing to admit that sliders/skates were on some production models. Does that hurt or help their current manufacturing? Or does it even matter?
Craig, I’m really not trying to belabor this, but you are trying to look at the content of the posts themselves objectively.
That is not Bachmann’s concern, it’s the “climate of the forum”… nothing to do with facts. You keep asking about the facts and it is NOT about the facts.
By not agreeing with “their” historian, then Bachmann took it as an affront to them, the site, and a bad “look” to the forum for other customers, i.e. could hurt business.
Clearly the information would not hurt Bachmann, nor their historian. This kind of response, i.e. “no bad vibes on the forum” has happened MANY times on that forum, and happened many times on Aristo.
Want me to email you posts where Lewis called me a troll in his forum? Where he threatened me with legal action because I said there were “design weaknesses” in the prime mover drivetrain? Want a transcript of the phone call to me where he said to remove my comments on my web site or he would ban me?
This is not new stuff. It’s their forum, and their right. Do not expect objective responses to anything that might reflect negatively on the manufacturer.
Best regards, Greg
p.s. I have no axe to grind with Bachmann, but this is how it is… I don’t think highly of it either, but it’s THEIR FORUM.
Here is a thought, and its is just that, a thought. Maybe the skates were copied from LGB, and that lead to some legal “issues”. Then bringing that information back up could strike a nerve with some one at Bachmann and they just want the subject forgotten.
Although I have to agree with Greg, I have seen pointless censoring to “preserve the image”, in other business settings.
Edit- wrong quote from Greg
Greg, I understand and know about your history with Aristo, but you’re right I am trying to look at the facts objectively. I was was trying to figure out two things; first why Bachmann censored the post ( question answered) and the second one was why did Bachmann remove the skates? I guess we’ll never know the answer to the second question.
As for Bachmann censoring their own posts…
It’s like I tell me Government students, you have to protect the rights of others even if you don’t agree with them because they have the same rights as you.
Well, I’ll have to ask around about the skates, but they were often problematic unless you had really good materials.
Pick up an LGB loco, and 9 times out of 10 the skates move up and down fine, work well.
Pick up an USAT loco, and 9 times out of 10 one or more skates have collapsed springs, do not move up and down right, are missing a wire.
My take is the better quality control, better materials on LGB pay off. But the cheaper plastics and quality control of USAT, Aristo, Bachmann make it so they fail easily, so they looked for better alternatives…
Aristo used to have power pickup on all wheels, then took it from the pilots and trailing trucks… then the tenders no longer picked up from both wheels on each axle to then only one wheel on an axle to only 2 axles on a 4 axle tender.
Over the years we have seen all kinds of ways to save money on manufacturing, and my guess is that the Bachmann copy of the LGB system had issues, and they found alternative (or fewer!) ways to pick up power.
Greg
Greg, yea, but many of my LGB locomotives have had a skate-ectomy. They act a bit like brakes, and with a long winding grade like I have, that is the kind of drag I don’t need.
Yeah, not saying they are always helpful. They clearly help on oxidized rail, I have stainless and took all the ones off my USAT locos, no issues.
Greg
Anyway, all this who struck John and what Bachmann does and doesn’t remember making is totally irrelevant to me so in regard to my original post the update is that my 30 dollar Porter runs well now. I tweaked the skates with needle nose pliers and some thin conducting oil so they float up and down smoothly in their grooves. The trick was getting the one pickup bent enough to still catch on the little plastic tab that keeps it from falling all the way out of the loco all together yet still flat enough to float up and down smoothly in the groove.
The skates I have experienced with LGB porters seem to ‘usually’ help the short wheelbase engine keep running smoothly as it passes over turnouts and diamonds that at slow speed it might otherwise end up stopping or ‘hiccupping’ as it passes over the un-energized part of rail or other anomalies in the track surface. As Ken noted early on in the thread though sometimes the skate itself is the thing that can hang up on said anomalies.
I have painted, weathered and installed an engineer in the little Porter and it is running fine. The springs could be a little stouter on the skates but then again…maybe that would cause more problems than just light contact with the rail will.
Ultimately, I need to figure out how to adjust the wobble out of the drivers and check the gauge. Hopefully the drivers are not bent themselves, merely installed wonky as I have seen on many early large scale locos. I received the pilot truck I ordered from Bachmann yesterday that fits one of their 2-4-2T locos and may cut the front pilot beam and frame off the Porter and fabricate a new frame so I can install the pilot truck and turn it in to a neat looking little 2-4-0 logging/mining engine. Once I do that I will most likely remove the skates altogether.
Good work Scott. We certainly did get your OP derailed. Sorry. Please keep us updated on this Porters progress. They are one of my favorite locos (I have 4 of them). (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
What I find amazing is folks who say they have a “very old Porter and it doesn’t have skates” as if that makes any difference at all. Obviously it ain’t old ENOUGH.
2-4-2’s had them, early Porters had them, the original trolleys had them (and if you look, the spot to put them on trolleys stayed there for a LONG time).
Bach 4-6-0’s…kept the mounting stud for the original battery bug mauler receiver board for-ever, even though nothing connected to it. Also kept the mount lug for the cab antenna for three or four more iterations after Version One went to the great roundhouse in the sky.
Personal experience with Bach…if someone they think knows everything is telling them it isn’t so, trust me, no amount of catalog photos, actual photos, nothing will convince them.
If anyone needs those skates, Barry at BBT says he has some. Like me, we save everything we rip out during conversion work.
Remember, all the work you do to one of these early kludges is all for naught when the cluster gear goes. If they won’t admit to skates, they certainly won’t have replacement gears.
TOC
Curmudgeon mcneely said:
What I find amazing is folks who say they have a “very old Porter and it doesn’t have skates” as if that makes any difference at all. Obviously it ain’t old ENOUGH.
2-4-2’s had them, early Porters had them, the original trolleys had them (and if you look, the spot to put them on trolleys stayed there for a LONG time).
Bach 4-6-0’s…kept the mounting stud for the original battery bug mauler receiver board for-ever, even though nothing connected to it. Also kept the mount lug for the cab antenna for three or four more iterations after Version One went to the great roundhouse in the sky.
Personal experience with Bach…if someone they think knows everything is telling them it isn’t so, trust me, no amount of catalog photos, actual photos, nothing will convince them.
If anyone needs those skates, Barry at BBT says he has some. Like me, we save everything we rip out during conversion work.
Remember, all the work you do to one of these early kludges is all for naught when the cluster gear goes. If they won’t admit to skates, they certainly won’t have replacement gears.
TOC
Dave
I do not have nearly the experience you do with very early Bachmann locomotives and the fact that some of the early 0-4-0s were shipped with skates is to me interesting and something new I learned.
Apparently several others who have a lot more experience them I were also somewhat surprised having never seen one before.
And I believe you are correct that parts for this locomotive are long gone. I broke an axle (since fixed) more then 5 years ago and no replacements were available. The locomotive has been stored serviceable and someday may be sold or given away.
Sorry my previous post “amazed you”
Stan
I understand that the gears for them old machines aren’t available from Bachmann anymore. But doesn’t Northwest Shortline have something to replace those gears with? They do have a decent selection of gears.
David Maynard said:
I understand that the gears for them old machines aren’t available from Bachmann anymore. But doesn’t Northwest Shortline have something to replace those gears with? They do have a decent selection of gears.
NWSL’s catalogue is as hard to read as the Walther’s website sometimes. If you find one, let me know. In LS I haven’t found cluster gears (worm gear attached to a spur gear as one part).
Usually by the time they go, if you find a replacement, the motor (Mabuchi) is about toast, plating gone on the drivers, who knows about the plastic body and chassis…time to look for something else.
Personal Opinion.
I remember 7 or 8 years ago some bloke in Oz needed one of those gears. I had one, put it in a zip lock baggie between two tracks in the roundhouse off the turntable in the shop, e-mailed him, said gimme yer address…and there it sat until early this year whe I got rid of it.
TOC
Yes, I know that NWSLs catalog is a pain to decipher. I haven’t bought gears from NWSL, but I keep reading about folks who do. That’s why I asked.
I know the Bachmann stuff, not including the Spectrum line, is quite often not worth repairing. But, if I take the time to bash and repaint something, I would want to keep it running, regardless of its actual worth. Also, some pieces have emotional or sentimental value to some folks. These folks I can see trying to source parts to repair those items.
David Maynard said:
Yes, I know that NWSLs catalog is a pain to decipher. I haven’t bought gears from NWSL, but I keep reading about folks who do. That’s why I asked.
I know the Bachmann stuff, not including the Spectrum line, is quite often not worth repairing. But, if I take the time to bash and repaint something, I would want to keep it running, regardless of its actual worth. Also, some pieces have emotional or sentimental value to some folks. These folks I can see trying to source parts to repair those items.
I use NWSL gears to fix 2-8-0’s, 4-4-0’s and big 2-6-0’s, as the first thing to go seems to be that plastic axle gear that somehow, miraculously shrinks and splits.
4-6-0’s all get BBT chassis, some to 2-8-0 configuration.
My personal 2-8-0 OF engines have BBT gearboxes in them.
I fight with Shays almost weekly, usually starts as split axle gears, goes downhill from there.
I even have two old Bachmann open trolleys with BBT drives in them…one because brand new, never run, not only gears but whatever glue they used to hold the magnets in the case on the motor…didn’t hold.
TOC
My new [to me] 30 dollar Porter clearly has little run time, I cleaned old lube off and re-lubed and…it looks pretty OK. Don’t see this pre-cancerous “cluster gear” issue that’s been bandied around yet but will research it. My theory on this apparently ‘prehistoric’ Bachmann Porter is that it will run sufficiently well right up until the day it quits running at all and after that…it won’t run until I fix it. [but that’s just a theory/prediction that has held true on other model locomotives prior to this one]. In other words, No Big Deal. For 30 bucks. I can live with that. I can fix it or put it on the shelf/trash/burn pile…makes no never mind to me.
Nothing’s truly “un-fixable” in my experience so far and that includes buying a Connie with a busted drive gear and the 3 truck shay with a busted and completely missing part of the driveshaft that Bachmann definitely does not have available for sale. In the first instance I found a better Delryn replacement gear from NWSL for my ebay Connie and my 3 truck Shay I fabricated the part from square styrene square tubing and it looks and performs like the original piece. Where there’s a will there’s a way.
S
