Large Scale Central

Metal Wheels

Modeling Rolling stock
#101

Michael Kirrene said:

See? Not to be a wise cracker, but I told ya!

I have pin gauges at work, but don’t want to use one to pop out the hub, though it would be ideal. All I have laying around are screwdrivers and I can’t use those or I’ll damage the plastic hubs. Down to the hardware store I go tomorrow to find some kind of rod or something the right diameter of the hub to pop out the hub. Last couple I tried had no flash at all on the hub or in the hole. Either the hole in the wheel is not true or the hole in the hub isn’t true. Maybe I’ll see if I can get some spare hubs from Bachmann to eliminate one of the two variables. Or ask David to fix them - he seems to know the secret. Out of the four axles I put on my Corona Beer car last night, I had to reject one because a wheel wobbled. Lucky me got 3 out of 4 good ones!!

Broken and dull drill bits can be cut down and make excellent push pins. Most can be tapped with a hammer.

They also make strong hinge pins.

John

#102

If you want the right tool for the job pin punches are made in a variety of sizes and are usually available in sets for a reasonable amount of money, here is just one set of many found on Amazon Pin punches For individual punches you’ll probably need to check McMaster or MSC if your local hardware does not have them.

#103

David Maynard said:

Well, I do not know what to say. I have rejected no Bachmann metal wheels. I found a wonky one on a car in my shop this week, a car that is waiting to be kit-bashed. This weekend I want to see if I can put together a how to on fixing these things.

I know this ain’t rocket science; I just don’t have to proper tools at my disposal to do it. I’ll gitter done soon.

#104

John and Gary, thanks very much for the help. Will definitely look into it.

#105

Devon Sinsley said:

So I received my first shipment of Bachmann Big Haulers 31.00mm wheels. 6 Cards 24 axles. Got them from Star. $80.00 shipped. So each set is $13.33.

I wanted to see what all the fuss is about with the wobbley wheels so I pulled them all out of the packages and did some very sophisticated testing. I rolled each one on a cutting board and looked for noticeable wobble. I also set my calipers to 1.570 which is NMRA minimum Back to Back. Here is what I found

3 needed to be regauged by spreading them. I was going to check for to wide but it is clear none are too wide.

18 axles had exhibited no noticeable wobble.

6 axles had at least some noticeable wobble.

3 of those are so slight that I doubt they will cause any problem and once installed will be forgotten about.

That leaves 3 that I would say are “in need of tweaking” In all likelihood none of these three need to be messed with. Like Kevin S has mentioned he puts them on and runs them and has no issue. I am sure I would find the same to be true. If no one would have ever brought this conversation up I doubt I would have noticed or cared. The wobble the worst offenders isn’t what I would call alarming. But since I know how to fix it I will give it a shot.

All in all I would say these are well worth the price. Sure top shelf would be better but when you’re cheap these will do and I am cheap.

You got a yield of 18 out of 24 axels, and the six “reject” axels you say are “noticeable” and half of those are “slight”? I’d say that is pretty darn good!! May I suggest that I may be a little more pickier than you are? Either that or the go/no-go call is really subjective. Again, my reference (standard) is the more expensive Gary Raymond wheel. LGB is even more precise, but I kinda established a ‘middle ground’ here with the GR wheelset. I believe I can get these babies dialed in though, with a little more perseverance and time permitting. I appreciate the suggestions from the knowledgeable LSC forum members here!

#106

Devon, after you put these wheels on your cars and start running trains, I’d be interested in hearing your take on the noise issue. I suspect that these “noisy” wheels are much more noticeable on indoor layouts rather than outdoors.

#107

Michael Kirrene said:

You got a yield of 18 out of 24 axels, and the six “reject” axels you say are “noticeable” and half of those are “slight”? I’d say that is pretty darn good!! May I suggest that I may be a little more pickier than you are? Either that or the go/no-go call is really subjective. Again, my reference (standard) is the more expensive Gary Raymond wheel. LGB is even more precise, but I kinda established a ‘middle ground’ here with the GR wheelset. I believe I can get these babies dialed in though, with a little more perseverance and time permitting. I appreciate the suggestions from the knowledgeable LSC forum members here!

Wait back up, “reject” is a strong word. Three of those I doubt anyone would notice if they were not looking close for it. I had to scrutinize it pretty close to see it and have no desire to mess with them. Even the three that are the worst offenders are probably serviceable. I will put all of them on a car that won’t see a ton of use, but I am guessing they never give me enough trouble to care. But with that said 21 out of 24 axles are what I would consider well within acceptable range. Certainly within the range I what I would expect from the cheap wheels.

You might suggest you are more pickier and that is absolutely fine, and I would suggest back that you need to up your price point to get what meets your needs. You will never get a '72 Chevy pick up to run like a 2017 ZR1 Vette. Either your happy with a Chevy truck or your not. Nothing at all wrong with being picky but when you buy the cheapest you can’t expect them to run like the best or they would cost as much as the best or the best would be out of business.

Now I would love to know if you can get new inserts from Bmann. Because the worst of the offenders looks to me like the insert is drilled off center.

#108

Devon Sinsley said:

Michael Kirrene said:

You got a yield of 18 out of 24 axels, and the six “reject” axels you say are “noticeable” and half of those are “slight”? I’d say that is pretty darn good!! May I suggest that I may be a little more pickier than you are? Either that or the go/no-go call is really subjective. Again, my reference (standard) is the more expensive Gary Raymond wheel. LGB is even more precise, but I kinda established a ‘middle ground’ here with the GR wheelset. I believe I can get these babies dialed in though, with a little more perseverance and time permitting. I appreciate the suggestions from the knowledgeable LSC forum members here!

Wait back up, “reject” is a strong word. Three of those I doubt anyone would notice if they were not looking close for it. I had to scrutinize it pretty close to see it and have no desire to mess with them. Even the three that are the worst offenders are probably serviceable. I will put all of them on a car that won’t see a ton of use, but I am guessing they never give me enough trouble to care. But with that said 21 out of 24 axles are what I would consider well within acceptable range. Certainly within the range I what I would expect from the cheap wheels.

You might suggest you are more pickier and that is absolutely fine, and I would suggest back that you need to up your price point to get what meets your needs. You will never get a '72 Chevy pick up to run like a 2017 ZR1 Vette. Either your happy with a Chevy truck or your not. Nothing at all wrong with being picky but when you buy the cheapest you can’t expect them to run like the best or they would cost as much as the best or the best would be out of business.

Now I would love to know if you can get new inserts from Bmann. Because the worst of the offenders looks to me like the insert is drilled off center.

Devon, please excuse my use of the word “reject”. It is prevalent in my Quality Assurance vocabulary. When a part doesn’t meet spec, it’s rejected from the “good” lot of parts that meet or exceed the expectations of the customer (me). I’ll stick with my use of “reject” until the part can be reworked into a good one. It still applies here. And I don’t give a rat’s posterior if these parts are half the price of the more expensive competitor’s wheelsets - I should still receive a consistently good product, and that doesn’t include wobbly wheels! I know my expectations are a little high, and it’s because of my background. Please forgive me for that. We’ve gone round and round on this thread about my expectations being too high for this Large Scale product. I totally get that. Thanks to those who pointed that out and especially to those who suggested how to fix these rejected Bachmann wheelsets with the appropriate tools.

#109

Wobble easily fixed. If I were doing this, I would get some small diameter brass stock, chuck it up in s small lathe (3-jaw chuck…automatically centered) and drill on center. I can make these for you guys…just give me the OD of the insert in the truck and the ID for the axle. I just send you the brass rod and you cut off what you need to replace the “rejected” inserts. Simple :).

I do bigger “stuff” too. :)…4-1/4 inch diameter and 3/4 axle freight car wheels.

#110

I am almost sorry that I mentioned my worse case scenario. I usually don’t have to pop the inserts out.

Ok, here is me fixing a set of wonky wheels.

First the wonky wheel set

One side is in gauge

The other side is over gauge.

Its hard to see, but the hub on the offending wheel is not pressed in as far on the one side as it is on the other side. I marked the high side of the hub with a Sharpie.

Then I press the high side of the hub into the wheel with my pliers.

After putting the wheel-set back together, its in gauge all of the way around.

To answer Michael’s concerns I put a dial caliper on the wheel-set. There is still a variance between the 2 sides of .005 inches. Originally it was nearly .015 inches. So, the wheel-set could still be considered a bit wonky, but the wheels are now in gauge, throughout a full 360 degree rotation in the gauge. So, they pass inspection and they will work just fine.

Most of the time, that is all I have to do to fix Bachmann wheels, to take the wonkyness out of a wheel-set. Again, I do not know how many Bachmann wheel-sets that I have in service, but it has to be a few hundred of them. I have no phantom derailments where a wheel does something unexpected. The rare derailments that I do have, I can attribute to debris on the track, or a track issue.

So Michael, maybe my tolerances are a bit looser then yours are. I can accept that. I am not working with precision equipment, I am running model trains. Or, if you prefer, I am playing with toy trains. What I care is that they run reliably, and they do, even with my looser tolerances.

#111

Gary Armitstead said:

Wobble easily fixed. If I were doing this, I would get some small diameter brass stock, chuck it up in s small lathe (3-jaw chuck…automatically centered) and drill on center. I can make these for you guys…just give me the OD of the insert in the truck and the ID for the axle. I just send you the brass rod and you cut off what you need to replace the “rejected” inserts. Simple :).

I do bigger “stuff” too. :)…4-1/4 inch diameter and 3/4 axle freight car wheels.

For us track power guys, the insert needs to be plastic, on at least one wheel per set. And the insert is stepped, like a wedding cake.

#112

Still easy to make…stepped or not…plastic or brass.

#113

David, at the risk of sounding argumentative (I’m not) and driving this into the ground (I am) let me make exception to one of your illustrations, which I do appreciate by the way:

  1. As I stated before, with pretty much with all of the “rejects” I found, the plastic hub is already seated nice and flush in the wheel hole all the way around the perimeter. If the hubs were not seated squarely and flush in the holes, it would be more obvious what the problem is. Like before, I punched the hub out, inspected the hub for flash and cleaned it, cleaned the wheel hole out thoroughly, then press fitted the hub back in the wheel. But what you’re showing above is the hub NOT sitting flush in the hole, which would be an obvious cause for wheel wobble and result in a fairly easy fix.
  2. “So Michael, maybe my tolerances are a bit looser than yours are”. Yeah, I think so. And I guess I’ll accept that, even though I have a choice of weeding out the worst case wheelsets .
  3. I have an e-mail drafted to Bachmann in Philly for spare plastic wheel hubs (assuming the hubs might be the issue here and not the metal wheels).
#114

Michael Kirrene said:

David, at the risk of sounding argumentative (I’m not) and driving this into the ground (I am) let me make exception to one of your illustrations, which I do appreciate by the way:

  1. As I stated before, with pretty much with all of the “rejects” I found, the plastic hub is already seated nice and flush in the wheel hole all the way around the perimeter. If the hubs were not seated squarely and flush in the holes, it would be more obvious what the problem is. Like before, I punched the hub out, inspected the hub for flash and cleaned it, cleaned the wheel hole out thoroughly, then press fitted the hub back in the wheel. But what you’re showing above is the hub NOT sitting flush in the hole, which would be an obvious cause for wheel wobble and result in a fairly easy fix.
  2. “So Michael, maybe my tolerances are a bit looser than yours are”. Yeah, I think so. And I guess I’ll accept that, even though I have a choice of weeding out the worst case wheelsets .
  3. I have an e-mail drafted to Bachmann in Philly for spare plastic wheel hubs (assuming the hubs might be the issue here and not the metal wheels).

Micheal, in most cases…OK, in most of the cases I have had, where the wheel wobbles, I can fix it to within tolerances with just the pliers. Even if the hub doesn’t look to be in crooked. I suggest you try it and see if it improves a wonky wheel for you.

For the really bad ones, I do drive the hub out and check it for flashing, the really bad ones tend to have some, and then I press it back in. As for Bachmann even stocking that part, I would be darn surprised if they did.

I understand that your tolerances may be tighter then mine. But I have to ask a question; If the wheels can work just fine with my tolerances, and they do, then maybe you might consider that you do not have to be so particular? Its your railroad.

And I do not think you are being argumentative. Its simply a matter of each of us having own own perspective on what is good and what is a reject. I learned a long time ago, that some things need to be exactly to spec to work, and others just need to be close enough. I am a copier/printer repair technician in real life. In my viewpoint, if the machine works properly, then the adjustment is “right”, even if the manual tells me otherwise.

If I did have problems with the Bachamnn wheels not working reliably, I would never recommend them. In fact I would tell people not to use them. But I do use them and I do recommend them, because in my application they do work properly.

#115

Devon Sinsley said:

Now I would love to know if you can get new inserts from Bmann. Because the worst of the offenders looks to me like the insert is drilled off center.

Devon, if the hole in the insert were off center, it should have a negligible effect on wheel gauge. It would just make the wheel tread go up and down with respect to the axle.

In fact, I once made a wheel insert with an off center hole, for a car I was building. I wanted the car to rock as it went down the track. For all of my effort, the wobble of the car was unnoticeable at any reasonable speed.

Edit because, for some reason, nothing I had typed appeared in the first try.

#116

Michael Kirrene said:

Please forgive me for that.

Nothing to forgive. You expect what you expect, noting wrong with that. Its not like our on here blasting BMann or other users for buying their product. Your accurately describing your findings and you are certainly entitled to hold a certain level of expectation. I think you have been more than fair in your assessment. Just becuase I think you are over the top insabnely crazy about perfection… no just kidding I don’t think that all.

I do hope you get new inserts from Bmann. That would be cool. Let us know My guess is that is where the problem lies not in the casting.

Here is a thought. I Have three axles with one wobbly wheel each. I wonder if I can trade out the one good wheel for another offending wheel and gain another axle?

#117

Gary Armitstead said:

Still easy to make…stepped or not…plastic or brass.

Now I wish you wouldn’t have brought this up Gary. Yet another reason why I need a mini lathe. I wonder if I could turn some inserts on my shop smith lol. Her we go with that making things way harder than they need to be.

#118

David Maynard said:

Devon Sinsley said:

Now I would love to know if you can get new inserts from Bmann. Because the worst of the offenders looks to me like the insert is drilled off center.

Devon, if the hole in the insert were off center, it should have a negligible effect on wheel gauge. It would just make the wheel tread go up and down with respect to the axle.

In fact, I once made a wheel insert with an off center hole, for a car I was building. I wanted the car to rock as it went down the track. For all of my effort, the wobble of the car was unnoticeable at any reasonable speed.

Edit because, for some reason, nothing I had typed appeared in the first try.

Good point. An off center hole would act as an eccentric bearing and would not wobble in an out of gauge. And my issues are definitely the latter. And when I say issue I am firmly in your camp. I am cheap and I admit it. Good enough is good enough for me. I see nothing in them that would cause me to not buy them.

#119

Devon Sinsley said:.

Here is a thought. I Have three axles with one wobbly wheel each. I wonder if I can trade out the one good wheel for another offending wheel and gain another axle?

Yes you can, and I even said so in a previous post. Usually you can just grab the wheels and pull while twisting and a wheel will come off the axle. Usually not the wheel you want to come off.

Devon Sinsley said:

Gary Armitstead said:

Still easy to make…stepped or not…plastic or brass.

Now I wish you wouldn’t have brought this up Gary. Yet another reason why I need a mini lathe. I wonder if I could turn some inserts on my shop smith lol. Her we go with that making things way harder than they need to be.

Yup, that’s what we do. I tend to do things the hard way at first, then I find an easier way. Evergreen makes plastic tubing in various sizes. I am sure with some experimentation, a new hub can be fabricated with 2 or 3 sizes of evergreen plastic tube.

#120

Many years ago, a member of MLS posted some photos of a miniature wheel puller/pusher he made with a small c-clamp. Just ground a small notch to hold the axle and the c-clamp went around/and over the wheel. Pretty slick idea and super cheap. Right up “youse guys alley”. :slight_smile:

I’ll see if I can find the photos and post them.