Large Scale Central

McCain campaign callers walk out over slimey script

Quote:
... More people are killed by cars in a day, than are killed by guns in a year in the USA. A gun is a tool, like a hammer. It is a tool that is misused by a small segment of society. Control only inconveniences the law abiding. The criminal is unaffected. As for the nut jobs, if there were no guns they would find another way to kill. As for domestic situations, is it more humane to be beaten to death?
I'm not arguing the number of deaths caused by one means over another. Yes, cars are deadlier than guns. No argument there. There's also no call to ban cars or alcohol (a leading factor in auto-related deaths). We tried the latter once. Didn't work. So, we promote responsibility, and establish laws relative to the use of autos and sales of alcohol. Effective? As effective as it can be, given the human quotient of the equation.

Yes, nut jobs will always find new and improved ways of killing, but we don’t have to make it easy for them. Ask the folks in Oklahoma about fertilizer and diesel fuel. We didn’t ban either substance, but people got a bit more diligent about sales of both. I can’t buy Sudafed without talking to a pharmacist first. It’s not a big deal, and it keeps people from buying the stuff by the case to make meth.

Laws don’t exist to protect the law-abiding. They exist to thwart those who are not. Are there ways around? Absolutely. No law is perfect in that regard. Do some of the regulations inconvenience people? Sure, but again–does the inconvenience outweigh the intended control? In most cases, no. Who complains when asked for ID when buying beer? If I’m going to buy a gun, I have no problem with a criminal background check. I don’t have a criminal background. (Speeding tickets–thankfully–don’t count.) If I know I have criminal background and cannot get a gun through legal channels, then I’m forced to try to find other means. That simple roadblock is often enough to thwart many people who look to do things in the heat of the moment.

Example… I’m at a bar, and get into an argument with you. You call my mother names. I get upset, and go across the street to the Wal-Mart to buy a gun in order to defend mom’s honor. I go into Wal-Mart, and the clerk says “I can sell it, but you’ll have to pick it up tomorrow after a quick check.” I push over a display of pillows on my way out the door to vent my frustration, kick an empty bottle on the way to my car, and drive home. Guess what–your life was spared by an “inconvenient” regulation. I’m fairly certain that–had the regulations not been in place and I was able to return to the bar to give mom her proper comeuppance–your survivors would not call any such proposed regulations “inconvenient.” I’d like to think your family would much rather have you sitting at the dinner table than lying 6 feet under it.

“More humane to be beaten to death?” No, but the likelihood of death from mere physical conflict is far, far less than that when there’s a gun involved. Remember–guns were invented because hand-to-hand combat was an ineffective means of subduing the enemy. Look at the number of domestic beatings–thousands reported every day. But both parties live to fight another day. Those parties are perfectly capable of beating each other to death, but they don’t because of the energy needed to do so. Put a weapon in their hand (gun, knife, lead pipe, candlestick in the library), and the chances of a worse outcome increases exponentially.

Later,

K

Cars are not designed for killing.
Neither are hammers.
Neither are baseball bats.
Neither are wooden fence palings.
I know knives and spears can also kill, but that is not what they were originally designed for.

Guns are designed for one thing only.

Killing something.

We here in Australia are lucky in that we have pretty good gun control legislation that was enacted after a nutter in Tasmania set the World record for killing the largest number of people by a single hand.

The guy who shot 32 people at virginia tech could not have done it with a car, or a club, or a knife, or his fists. It’s the particular effectiveness of guns as a killing tool that makes the difference. He bought some guns at a gun show, loaded up, and just opened fire randomly on people sitting in classrooms. He had insane angry delusion and grand apocalyptic fantasies that only a gun could fulfill. If it had been harder for him to get the gun, 32 kids might be alive today, 32 families would be spared watching their effort and dreams wiped out.

Bathtubs kill people, stairs kill people, dogs kill people, but you can’t throw 32 people down a flight of stairs.

We dont regualte aspirin, because it’s not that dangerous. We do regulate morphine, because it’s far more dangerous.

You anti-gun people (and SHAME on the HISTORY teacher for it) keep missing a VERY important point. When the second amendment was written a bunch of ordinary people had just USED their guns TO KILL PEOPLE… in order to overthrow what they felt was a tyrannical government. They wished to ensure that, should it ever become necessary again, WE THE PEOPLE could repeat that action.

Considering the difference in armament between what the military currently has and what the average citizen has this part (heart, actually) has mostly become symbolic. But don’t be in such a hurry to throw it away, symbols still have power (the cross, the star of david, the dove, peace signs even) …especially at a time when our own beloved government has already seen fit to trample, twist and generally ignore just about every other item in the Bill of Rights.

“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” – Benjamin Franklin 1759

Hold on a second, Mik. No one’s debating the 2nd Amendment, nor the fundamental principles underlying its creation. The Supreme Court’s recent decision on DC’s gun ban upheld that pretty solidly, hence my argument as to why it’s not a campaign issue this year. No one–not the journalist who’s been fairly close to gun violence, but enjoys target shooting when he has a chance; not the history professor who hunts–has even remotely suggested overturning the 2nd Amendment.

What we do support is smart, common sense regulation of the industry to make it a bit more difficult (note I did not say “impossible”) for criminals and those not-so-mentally-stable to obtain guns in the first place. Nothing wrong with a background check, nothing wrong with a national database to close up the cracks people use to slip by. Ideally, I’d love to come up with a–parden the pun–bullet-proof way of keeping guns out of criminals’ hands, but we all know that’s simply not realistic.

Later,

K

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

mike omalley said:
The guy who shot 32 people at virginia tech could not have done it with a car, or a club, or a knife, or his fists.
No, He could have used a truck load of fertilizer and killed many more people. You can buy fertilizer most anywhere. Ralph
Kevin Strong said:
Nothing wrong with a background check, nothing wrong with a national database to close up the cracks people use to slip by.

Later,

K


We have that already. And a national data base can be used to confiscate the weapons.
Times get bad enough we all may really need our guns to protect ourselves and our families.
People get hungry enough, they will try to take what is yours. It happens daily on a small scale now.
Just imagine what it would be like with double digit unemployment and runaway inflation.
Ralph

This is what always happens–gun control absolutists won’t allow any discussion of regulation.

There"s a famous argument about the right to limit free speech–free speech does not protect a man who falsely yells “fire” in a crowded theater.

Of course the Va tech shooter could have built a fertilizer bomb. Or started a fire.

He used guns that he bought with absolutely zero trouble, even though he had already been under psychiatric care for making violent threats.

If the number of people killed by fertilizer bombs ever got close to the number of people killed every day by guns, I’d be arguing for some iind of regualtion of fertlizer, absolutely

mike omalley said:
This is what always happens--gun control absolutists won't allow any discussion of regulation.
If you want to regulate guns in your community, I have no problem with that. Just don't force your regulation on my community. Ralph
mike omalley said:
...........

If the number of people killed by fertilizer bombs ever got close to the number of people killed every day by guns, I’d be arguing for some iind of regualtion of fertlizer, absolutely


Mike, on a slightly lighter note, would that mean regulation of all the bulls…t, too? :wink: :slight_smile:

I suppose it would have to!

As a side note - Obama has been endorsed by the American Hunters and Shooters Association (some less nutty gun nuts) - http://www.huntersandshooters.com/

-Brian

Quote:
... We have that already. And a national data base can be used to confiscate the weapons.
Pardon the shouting, but WHO'S ADVOCATING CONFISCATING GUNS???

Here’s the Supreme Court’s decision on gun ownership.
http://media.npr.org/documents/2008/jun/scotus_dcguns.pdf

IF the government were to suddenly decide that guns were illegal and come for them, they would be violating the Constitution. Period. The above decision is pretty clear about that. Thus we would be at the point which the 2nd Amendment was designed to protect–the right of the citizenry to rise up against the government in armed conflict. You would be within your constitutional rights to fire as they came for the guns.

Yes, a national database would be able to keep track of guns and gun owners. That’s the whole point of a database. States already maintain them, so it’s not like the federal government can’t get the data if it wanted to. A nationalized criminal background database makes it so someone arrested in Virginia can’t cross the border into Maryland to buy a gun. As for background checks themselves, there are still loopholes (gun show sales, only required for certain kinds of guns, etc.). There’s plenty of room for improvement that would make it harder for criminals to get guns while preserving the rights of individuals to own whichever kinds of guns they wish.

Tighter regulations can be enacted at the local level to suit the specific needs of the community, but a broad-based registry when it comes to background checks and the like would go great lenghts to keep guns out of the potential serial killer living next door to you. :slight_smile:

Later,

K

WE DON"T NEED MORE LAWS (not sorry for the shouting) We need the ones already in place to be FAIRLY enforced… When everybody just “goes through the motions”, THAT’s when it becomes a problem.

Registration is a hot button issue not so much because it is a problem in and of itself, but because it sets up a slippery slope like in the UK where they keep incrementally changing the laws to the detriment of honest citizens. And frankly it’s NONE of your, or the government’s business if I have a gun, or ten guns, or no guns.

I certainly won’t argue about enforcing what’s already on the books. (Gun laws are hardly the only arena for that wish.) But certain tools such as national databases of criminal backgrounds, etc. would make it easier for the laws to be followed–thus enforced.

As for the government’s knowledge of gun ownership, I look at it like owning a car. The law says they’ve got to be registered, so we register them. The government doesn’t care if or how many, they just want to keep a record of what’s out there to make sure they’re not going to those who shouldn’t have them–and if they do end up in those hands, they have a trail to try to find out who put them there. To my thinking, that’s not remotely intrusive. Certainly, it’s no more intrusive than the various directories that show where you live, how much you paid for your house, what your income is, where you’ve lived previously, etc. (And that kind of information is available openly to whoever wants to pay to find out, not just to law enforcement.)

Later,

K

This is the gun control debate in a nutshell–Kevin makes series of eminently reasonable and well argued posts, moderate in tone and intent, and Mik responds by shouting

Nobody here or in national politics has argued for “taking away the 2nd amendment.” But that’s always how the issue gets framed. As I said, I own a gun, I was taught to hunt by my grandfather, a retired state policemen who had five long guns and at least one handgun. I’d favor both different gun laws than we have and better enforcement of the laws we already have. I can’t get over the spectacle of those bloody classrooms at Virginia tech–it’s very personal to me, given what I do for a living

Arguments for gun control are not arguments for gun confiscation. We regulate all sorts of dangerous things. You take prescription medication? Distribution is limited A careful record is kept of amount dispense. As Kevin said, your car is regulated. Are those regulations irritating? Yes. Are they intrusive? Yes? Do they serve the general good? Yes.

In terms of intrusiveness, again as kevin said, the company you buy a gun from instantly knows far more about you, for more private detail, than the government, because it buys a record of your purchases and your credit history

Kevin Strong said:
Quote:
... We have that already. And a national data base can be used to confiscate the weapons.
Pardon the shouting, but WHO'S ADVOCATING CONFISCATING GUNS???

Here’s the Supreme Court’s decision on gun ownership.
http://media.npr.org/documents/2008/jun/scotus_dcguns.pdf

IF the government were to suddenly decide that guns were illegal and come for them, they would be violating the Constitution. Period. The above decision is pretty clear about that. Thus we would be at the point which the 2nd Amendment was designed to protect–the right of the citizenry to rise up against the government in armed conflict. You would be within your constitutional rights to fire as they came for the guns.

Yes, a national database would be able to keep track of guns and gun owners. That’s the whole point of a database. States already maintain them, so it’s not like the federal government can’t get the data if it wanted to. A nationalized criminal background database makes it so someone arrested in Virginia can’t cross the border into Maryland to buy a gun. As for background checks themselves, there are still loopholes (gun show sales, only required for certain kinds of guns, etc.). There’s plenty of room for improvement that would make it harder for criminals to get guns while preserving the rights of individuals to own whichever kinds of guns they wish.

Tighter regulations can be enacted at the local level to suit the specific needs of the community, but a broad-based registry when it comes to background checks and the like would go great lenghts to keep guns out of the potential serial killer living next door to you. :slight_smile:

Later,

K


I fail to see where I said anything about you advocating the confiscation of guns, so why are you shouting?
I simply said a national data base could be (mis)used to confiscate guns.
As for a background check, we have that and I don’t have a problem with it.
Ralph

TonyWalsham said:
I know knives and spears can also kill, but that is not what they were originally designed for.

We here in Australia are lucky in that we have pretty good gun control legislation that was enacted after a nutter in Tasmania set the World record for killing the largest number of people by a single hand.


Tony, knives and spears were invented for the specific purpose of killing something. A spear has no other use. A knife has found a multitude of uses (most frequently, removing excess skin from my fingers) but its primary purpose remains killing.

I find it very telling that you say that the killing was done by a hand, and not a gun. One has to wonder why hands are not banned.

Mikey, if you’re going to drag school shootings in, then I’m going to make a point. From what I have read MOST school shooters have been bullied social outcasts. As horrific as what they did IS, do you know what it is like to get tormented EVERY day just because you are “different”? Kids are quite often like piranha or wolves, they will gang up and attack those of the group least capable of defending themselves. BUT unlike these animals they often do it just for FUN. School authorities are often “too busy” to sort out what actually happened, so they punish the victim as well…leading the victim to think no-one gives a shit about them…and the anger starts to build… Some will find less destructive (or just self destructive) outlets, some will eventually strike back.

IMO If this is your issue, then time for ZERO TOLERANCE of bullying behavior before more gun laws.