Large Scale Central

Making the jump to Airwire

Electronics Power and Sound
#21

Yes Kevin, many things have gotten even better.

The QSI evolved into the “Emulation Technology” which brought a new dimension into upper end sound.

But many systems have been the same hardware and just got either more sound files or new features.

There is a decoder that has an automated process to set correct BEMF parameters for the ultimately easy tuning of a motor (sounds like that might be good for you). (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-sealed.gif)

There’s more support for station stop and breaking on DC, the “coupler dance” for uncoupling and putting Kadees into “Delayed uncoupling mode”.

It is great. I just bought another 10 decoders to help complete the fleet, and am happy to spend the $$.

Greg

#22

Mark,

I run the airwire / phoenix combination in my shay and it is a very good system. I have had mine for about 8 years now and the only issue I had with it was self inflicted. Al at Airwire is a very good person to get help from, and is easy to work with. Also, I am able to control all sounds (including volume) directly from my throttle. My system is an older one too, so they have only gotten better since. The only thing I would advise you add is a Battery Conversion Module from G Scale Graphics. It is a very handy component that makes battery installation much easier and cleaner. (Link Below) I have mine installed in the shay so I plug the charger into the back of the tender and never take the battery out.

Chris

http://www.gscalegraphics.net/store/c5/Battery_Conversion_Modules.html

#23

I am a Analog and DCC user (I have a switch to do both on my RR.)

I have done battery installs for many people and I prefer a system that can drive electronics without adding/buying extra boards.

So, the revo is not my choice as the 10ma limit on functions and resistors for regular lamps plus a special smoke board are not to my liking.

The airwire and G3 setup I configured was almost as awesome as my DCC system for capability and flexibility. Direct on board control for a smoke unit and good lamp drivers with great programing options. Plus you could control a Phoenix sound unit via the DCC port. But it does cost more than the revo to do all of this.

#24

On another note, the LGB mogul tender has a lot of room inside.

Cut out the inner top of the tender to gain more room, replace the metal weight with your batteries, rewire the 6 pin cable for 2 to the motor, 2 for the headlight, and 2 for the smoke if you use it.

#25

This thread has been most informative to me. I have been a Revolution user since the first Beta units, and have been very happy with it. I tried the AIrwire system also. It offered some nice features and there were some things I really liked about it. The deal breaker for me, though, was the range. When the train was on the opposite side of my railroad (little over 50’), I couldn’t control it. It tried all sorts or things, and followed all the suggestions from the Airwire folks, to no avail.

I also agree with Kevin, the Revolution is definitely not a DCC system, but for some folks like me, it offers more functionality than I ever use, and is VERY easy to program and setup for dummies like me!!

Anyway, thanks for all the great info to all of you on the pros and cons on the various systems.

Ed Headington

#26

Ed Headington said:

This thread has been most informative to me. The deal breaker for me, though, was the range. When the train was on the opposite side of my railroad (little over 50’), I couldn’t control it. It tried all sorts or things, and followed all the suggestions from the Airwire folks, to no avail.

This thread is also very informative for me. After witnessing about a 20 to 30 feet range (max) with the T5000 throttle firsthand yesterday, I’m beginning to wonder about the Airwire’s capabilities. I’m unfamiliar with the settings, but maybe there’s a power setting somewhere? Shouldn’t need external antennas, right? I understand this thing is normally suppose to go about 150 feet. Now I hear that it’s limited. That can’t be right…

#27

Ed Headington said:

This thread has been most informative to me. I have been a Revolution user since the first Beta units, and have been very happy with it. I tried the AIrwire system also. It offered some nice features and there were some things I really liked about it. The deal breaker for me, though, was the range. When the train was on the opposite side of my railroad (little over 50’), I couldn’t control it. It tried all sorts or things, and followed all the suggestions from the Airwire folks, to no avail.

I also agree with Kevin, the Revolution is definitely not a DCC system, but for some folks like me, it offers more functionality than I ever use, and is VERY easy to program and setup for dummies like me!!

Anyway, thanks for all the great info to all of you on the pros and cons on the various systems.

Ed Headington

Oh yes, I forgot about the range of the Airwire. I have a fairly small layout and the range wasn’t enough to control the loco on the other side of my layout. No problem with the Revolution.

#28

Crud! My old 27 megacycle TE can control my trains from the far side of my neighbor’s yard. That got to be close to 200 feet of range. I would think the new, higher frequency, newer technology units could at least match that!

#29

The only reason why you would get poor distance on a Airwire setup is if your receiving antenna is tangled up in other wires.
I have done (2) Airwire installs on two of my trains, both of which respond to commands from well over 100’ away.
The only time I had an issue was on my original install, and sure enough I had gotten the antenna wire tangled when closing up the locomotive.
And by the way I suck at doing installs and I still have gotten them to work well.

#30

The T-5000 has a power setting on it so you can limit its range. This is useful when you’ve got multiple operators running on the same frequency, so you don’t interfere with each other. In indoor environments or outdoor ones where operators are usually right next to their trains, this ability to limit range is a good thing, as you don’t need to broadcast farther than 10’ (3’ indoors!). I usually run my T-5000 at full power when outside, but it drinks batteries like lemonade on a hot day at that setting.

Having said that, average “reliable” range for my Airwire-based trains is around 30’, regardless of what transmitter I’m using. By reliable, I mean it doesn’t matter what orientation the transmitter is relative to the receiver, it will hear it. If I push a button, I’ll hear the appropriate sound in response. It will work from farther away, but the reception begins to get spotty. The reception patterns for an Airwire transmitter and receiver are irregular. You can have full control of your train from 80 feet away, but then the locomotive moves 10 feet one way or the other, or you turn the transmitter sideways instead of vertical, and the reception changes. For me, this isn’t usually an issue as I’m normally walking with my train anyway. When I am in a “watch 'em run” frame of mind, the worst that happens is that I can’t blow the whistle for the crossing from the comfort of my chair.

Later,

K

#31

Vincent D’Agostino said:
The only reason why you would get poor distance on a Airwire setup is if your receiving antenna is tangled up in other wires. I have done (2) Airwire installs on two of my trains, both of which respond to commands from well over 100’ away. The only time I had an issue was on my original install, and sure enough I had gotten the antenna wire tangled when closing up the locomotive. And by the way I suck at doing installs and I still have gotten them to work well.

Must be another reason! The antenna wire was very clear of everything…

#32

Bruce Chandler said:

Must be another reason! The antenna wire was very clear of everything…

When I talked with the folks from Airwire 2-years ago at the ECLSTS the only other thing they mentioned that would effect communication range was to make sure I was using the battery that they recommended.(which I do). Maybe that is something to look at?

#33

Kevin Strong said:

“The T-5000 has a power setting on it so you can limit its range. I usually run my T-5000 at full power when outside, but it drinks batteries like lemonade on a hot day at that setting. Having said that, average “reliable” range for my Airwire-based trains is around 30’, regardless of what transmitter I’m using. It will work from farther away, but the reception begins to get spotty. The reception patterns for an Airwire transmitter and receiver are irregular. You can have full control of your train from 80 feet away, but then the locomotive moves 10 feet one way or the other, or you turn the transmitter sideways instead of vertical, and the reception changes. For me, this isn’t usually an issue as I’m normally walking with my train anyway. When I am in a “watch 'em run” frame of mind, the worst that happens is that I can’t blow the whistle for the crossing from the comfort of my chair.”

I’m not really interested in chasing my train around and controlling it from 10 feet away most of the time. Instead, I would prefer to sit my butt in a chair with a cold brewski and still be able to slow a train down on a curve or prevent a train from running into the back of another, or change a switch to enable one train to wait on a siding while another passes, all on the other side of the yard. Seems to me those are basic functions that a transmitter should be able to handle 50-100 feet away. If I can’t get my Airwire to do those tasks without walking around with the train and at the inconvenience of drinking batteries like crazy at full power, then it sure doesn’t sound real appetizing. But Airwire was/is number one for a reason, so it problems like this exist, not everyone is complaining about compromises here…

#34

Vincent D’Agostino said:

Bruce Chandler said:

Must be another reason! The antenna wire was very clear of everything…

When I talked with the folks from Airwire 2-years ago at the ECLSTS the only other thing they mentioned that would effect communication range was to make sure I was using the battery that they recommended.(which I do). Maybe that is something to look at?

Well too late now…it’s long gone. I even forget who I sold it to. It sure did like to go through batteries, as I recall.

#35

Vincent D’Agostino said:

Bruce Chandler said:

Must be another reason! The antenna wire was very clear of everything…

When I talked with the folks from Airwire 2-years ago at the ECLSTS the only other thing they mentioned that would effect communication range was to make sure I was using the battery that they recommended.(which I do). Maybe that is something to look at?

Vinnie, I’ve seen no such recommendation. Which battery? Locomotive or transmitter?

Edit:

Must be this… from CVPUSA

14.8 Volts - This voltage is the best option for long range radio operation. Higher voltage causes much more interference to be generated by locomotive motors which can impair distant radio operation. Higher battery voltages are not recommended since they will wear out locomotive wheel treads and axle bearings much faster.

#36

Geez, at 900 MHZ, you wouldn’t think interference would be an issue…

#37

I have run mine on Marty’s layout and have not had reception issues at all. I have several times let it go while I was in conversation with people and still had control of it from a good 50’ away. I still have the old T9000 controller, which does have an external antenna on it. If you are having to be 10’ from your train with any system, there is a problem that most likely isn’t the system. I cannot comment on the battery idea, as I run an 18V battery in mine.

My son has a Revo on his railtruck and it works just fine. Personally I’m not a fan of it because I dislike the way the trottle button works.

Chris

#38

Ya know… I wish that I hadn’t followed this thread. I have more questions now than I did when I started.

I had planned to stay with Airwire, but now, I’m not so sure. I don’t care much about sound, but if its is available, that’s ok, too. I just don’t want to spend more for it. I’m a cheap bastard thrifty. The best sound that I’ve ever heard is the one generated between my ears.

I have 7 Aristo products and 2 more USAT products to convert to R/C. A few Bachmann and one Hartland Locomotive Works. Next up are my Aristo SD 45’s and Dash 9s.

So… stay with Airwire, or have two different systems, Airwire and REVO? Or use a third one?

#39

Higher battery voltages are not recommended since they will wear out locomotive wheel treads and axle bearings much faster.

Huh? Why? Unless the higher voltage is used to try and set land speed records, why would a higher voltage battery wear out the wheel treads?

#40

That is because the radio modulation scheme they are using is not sophisticated, the Lynx radio chip is basically a modem, changes voltage to a modulation one to one. No extra error handling, encoding, etc.

Very simple, inexpensive, and not interference tolerant, especially when the loco is part of the interference to it’s own radio system.

All this old school stuff will eventually fade away, go to some 2.4 GHz technology designed to withstand interference, hop frequencies, and have error correction embedded into the signal.

The Aristo Revo uses a Zigbee chip, not necessarily the full Zigbee protocol. My Zimo uses Zigbee and has fantastic range. I had 3 base stations for my layout under NCE, now I have just the Zimo central station, and the antenna is behind 8 inches of concrete, not close to optimal, but I can run from inside the house now.

I still remember the visit to Dennis Serrine’s huge layout in Phoenix where an AirWire train got away from him and he was sticking the transmitter into the tunnel into the garage in an attempt to stop it…

Greg