OK, thrown off by this.
it is weird they described it that way instead of how they do in the manual. At least I know you have my bback and are looking out for me.
Devon,
Will be a much better deal for you than the US$89 previously mentioned.
According to the published specs it will support Li-Ion.
FWIW:
Li-Po batteries utilize exactly the same charge regimen as Li-Ion batteries… In fact many Li-Ion batteries offered as multiples 3.7V cell batteries is incorrect, Li-Ion OEM cell specification sheets from Sanyo/Panasonic, Samsung, LG and GP clearly suggest they are 3.6V cells. Yet there are others suggesting 3.7V Li-ion cells, such as Tenergy. So the typical four cell battery comprised of 3.6V cells is a 14.4V battery not a 14.8V battery! Li-Po batteries on the other hand are rated at 3.7V cells. There are MANY Li-Ion battery suppliers that wrap and or rewrap the 18650 cells with their own tube/label, accordingly their specifications are all over the place.
Most chargers differentiate between the Li-Ion and Li-Po cell technologies, providing the appropriate cell termination cut-off voltage charge regimen. Those that are charging their 3.6V four cell batteries with a 14.8V battery factor maybe overcharging the batteries.
Michael
How would one know that for sure when they buy what is advertised as a 14.8v pack such as Tenergry if in reality it should be charged to 14.4v? Or are you politely saying Tenergy is not being forthright and really is always a 14.4v pack regardless to what they advertise. I certainly think I would never really feel the effect of 14.4v versus 14.8v so should I just consider all four cell LiIo to be 14.4v
Devon,
I don’t have a qualified answer for you… I did some Lithium-Ion cell specification surfing this morning, I note several offerings claiming 3.7V nominal ratings. Once upon a time I was heavily vested in the Lithium Ion offerings working with several battery assemblers in the USA, at that time there were maybe 6 OEM manufacturers offering 18650 cells, all were 3.6V. As I alluded to previously many battery suppliers are wrapping cells with their own tubes/labels that is a FACT. I suppose unscrupulous companies may indeed exaggerate the specifications to one up the competition… That being said Tenergy far as I can research is not an OEM manufacturer, and is based in Fremont California. Again as I alluded to I found a few specifications from OEM’s that list their cells at 3.7V nominal.
If it were me, I would assume and charge all my batteries with the 3.6V specification or less… There is NO reason to push the envelope at .1V per cell or .4V for a four cell battery, all things considered it is well documented that charging Lithium cells to the nominal rating is doable, yet short or soft charging to a slightly lower value will increase their respective life cycle notably. Same thing plays out in the discharge mode, running your battery down to allowable voltage values or DOD (depth of discharge) is undesirable and will shorten said life cycle… So just because you maybe able to run an engine for four hours on a single charge is doable there are cons associated with same.
Michael
I chose to have faith! I bought my batteries and charger at the same time from the same dealer. One recommended here and elsewhere…
Well many use AllBattery, but I guess I went to BatterySpace. Years ago I got some neato rechargeable flashlights there… could recharge in my truck while exploring old mines.
My first packs were 18+v and I dreaded handing the controls to my speed obsessed nephews. I never used the top end… hopefully wiser, I’ve reduced them to 14.8v.
After reading Michael’s warning I looked around AllBattery and the only 3.6v bats were NiCads. Maybe it’s an insider’s knowledge.
As to putting your batteries in in a teepee shape … no way; you’ll waste space. Rectangles nest best with parallel sides. However most Battery suppliers will configure your package to suit your space.
To the experts; Don’t most batteries have an over charge peak?
John
Back in July there was a thread on RCGroups of which if you read thru, (gave me anyways), a better ‘appreciation/respect’ for rechargables.
And I shared it via my personal mailing list, THE515;
" ~ For the (rechargable) battery user ;
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2398810&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Click%20here%20to%20check%20out%20our%20stats.&utm_campaign=Sept.%204%20Mass%20RCG
Suggest ya scroll/pg down to near bottom to start with the "conclusion" ! and then IF interested in more detail review, pg up to top to read thru !
{review info excerpted from the latest RCGroups email received on the 4th, via the forum i signed onto a couple yrs back when researching those 1:24 scale tanks for possible integration into our railway world 
IF you at least watch a portion of the video you will be reminded of how rechargable battery technology can be ‘dangerous’} "
doug c
John,
Faith is all good, but blind faith may have a cost. Battery assemblers/resellers and or battery retailers are not the OEM’s of said cell technologies. Accordingly for whatever reason the industry abounds with a lot of misinformation at the public level! Those in the know recognize said misinformation, been there done that going on nearly 15 years… FWIW: I see many retailers offer products that work together, yet are not directly inline with OEM cell manufacturer specifications for charging/discharging/storage. Its my belief that the OEM’s know their respective products better than any other entity.
I was referring to individual cell voltage, verses battery packs with multiple cells. You noted 3.6V NiCd batteries; a 3.6V NiCd battery comprised of three 1.2V cells…
All cells have specifications that suggest their charge termination voltage, discharge termination voltage and charge/discharge current values at the least. In practice the charge termination voltage is realized as its “PEAK”. The PEAK term was coined back in the day of the NiCad and referenced a semi automatic charge regimen that terminated automatically once the cumulative cell voltage calculation was met at various current levels (verses trickle charging at a fixed low current and specified time intervals). PEAK charging in of itself is NOT appropriate for Lithium technologies.
The advent of PCB/PCM’s control boards used in conjunction with Li-Ion/Li-Po batteries offers what should be a secondary safety to limit the accumulated cell voltage by terminating charge once the pre-determined voltage is reached (same as PEAK termination), however the actual termination voltage of a PCB/PCM is typically 4.3V±.025V. Herein lies a problem, there are dumb and or so called intelligent chargers that simply rely on the PCB/PCM to terminate charge… Terminating charge in excess of the OEM specification is undesirable!
Michael
Michael,
Thanks for your detailed response.
As noted on another thread; From my retail source, likely not the OEM…
I googled; LI-ion battery warnings.
From BatterySpace;
“Please realize that batteries might cause damages like leaking, fire or explode when misuse or defective.
It is your responsibility to double check and make sure your devices have necessary protection circuits.
When charging Battery Pack, please put battery in a fire proof container.Always charge in an isolated area, away from other flammable materials. Ex: wood bench, carpet unattended.
We are only responsible for the products we sell.We are NOT responsible for any damages and consequences damages by using our products.”
Good thing I have that oven, I understood what I read, but I’m still gonna use that charger my purveyor sold me.
John
So Faith isn’t perhaps the best way and the gods protecting me have made my brick charger fall into the cosmic hole …
As I only have 2 li-ion packs of 14.x v would this cheaper charger be good enough?
http://www.all-battery.com/Tenergyb450acbalancecharger-01441.aspx
It’s about 20 bucks cheaper than what was discussed above…
Thanks,
John
Well… I went back and oooops can’t use it I have 8 cell packs.
As Miss Emily used to say:
Never Mind
Then again, see below…
Are 8 cells in a 14.x v pack considered 2x 4 in series or is an 8 cell pack?
Seems chargers are rated by number of cells (s)
My packs are 14.8v 4400mAh
Oh my head hurts…
No rush, I’ll be back later…
Thanks,
John
Hi John, I am here to help you and others. There are a few company’s that advertise on this site. We sell smart chargers just for you guys! I do not see BatterySpace here offering personal service to make sure you have more fun and a safe experience with your trains. All I ask is you try to support the vendors on this site. Sorry I had to vent.
Safety First. I am recommending Cell-Con medical grade 4 cell 14.8v smart charger for $55. It works! You will need to charge each pack indivually. If you a using a 14.8v 4400mAh pack then this charger will still work. Inside the pack you would find 8 cells or a second row to get the higher amperage or runtime. As you stated the charger is set to the number of cells not the amp ratings in your battery pack. These smart chargers will take about 4 hours to charge your 14.8v 4400 pack.
As Michael has stated we have an excellent safety record with lithium battery packs used in our trains. I know of two accidents due to using a variable output charger at 3 amps. That blew up the battery. Just choose a charger to match the number cells/voltage or use our universal charger ($89) that you can select 5 different nickel metal hydride packs or 5 different lithium packs that matches your pack.
Please call me to ask any questions.
Don Sweet
RCS of New England
603-321-1347
Don,
Interesting post. Made me think a bit. Customer service to me is #1 and having a dealer that understands exactly what we are working with is important. The adage “you get what you pay for” includes the customer service behind it. So on one side of a coin you have dealers here that while their product might cost more their ability to help you is far greater and I believe there are greater chances of being well cared for in the case something doesn’t work out so well.
But the flip side of that coin is that this is a very expensive hobby. Not all of us can afford to have the best and nicest things. If we want to play we might have to make due with something lesser, otherwise this simply becomes a rich man hobby. So where do you cut corners and where do you splurge? I could buy a battery pack and charger from a dealer here and get exactly what I need and excellent customer service and support and pay twice as much. Or does one buy a very reliable generic product for half as much and not get any support or service? I could make a strong case for either scenario.
This isn’t meant in anyway as derogatory to you or any of our dealer/fellow hobbyists/friends. It simply comes down to what are each of us willing to pay for to get that extra something versus buying on the cheap what will meet our needs. Its a tough call and you have made me think about what is important to me and who I should by it from and why.
Well, my trusted go-to guy was Jonathan Bliese, but he has retired from this business. it seems. His website now shunts me to RCSAmerica. Did I miss a notice on these pages?
Devon, my 2 cents worth is that power is worth spending the cash on. I spent the cash for good track, good power, and I over-killed the wiring. Without reliable motive power, and good track, I do not have a railroad. Rolling stock I buy used, or on sale, and that includes my locomotives.
Since you aren’t going track power, splurge for good power for the locomotives. Sure, you could save some green by shopping and purchasing lesser expensive stuff, but what happens if your locomotive sputters to a stop 30 minutes into its 4 hour shift? You get frustrated and go watch TV, or play on the internet. Having poor running equipment (for whatever reason) has probably cost this hobby an untold multitude of model railroaders. A cheep boxcar car be tuned up to perform well, a cheap battery, not so much.
David Maynard said:
Devon, my 2 cents worth is that power is worth spending the cash on. I spent the cash for good track, good power, and I over-killed the wiring. Without reliable motive power, and good track, I do not have a railroad. Rolling stock I buy used, or on sale, and that includes my locomotives.
Since you aren’t going track power, splurge for good power for the locomotives. Sure, you could save some green by shopping and purchasing lesser expensive stuff, but what happens if your locomotive sputters to a stop 30 minutes into its 4 hour shift? You get frustrated and go watch TV, or play on the internet. Having poor running equipment (for whatever reason) has probably cost this hobby an untold multitude of model railroaders. A cheep boxcar car be tuned up to perform well, a cheap battery, not so much.
What he said.
Oh I can’t argue the point of quality power. But many on here have recommended, and have had great success with Tenergy Li-Io battery packs. They are considerably cheaper than say those being sold by some of those train friendly dealers here. Same with the chargers. That said I still believe in dealing with people who know and understand what we are doing and will be around when I have a problem. Here is what I discovered, a Tenergy 14.8v 2600 mAh pack is $39.99 at Allbattery, I can get a Cordless Renovations 14.8v 2800 mAh pack for $53.00 from a dealer on here. I will likely buy the Cordless Renovations one, Why? its only $13.00 dollars more and I am dealing with a neighborhood (albeit virtual) hobby shop train enthusiast instead of some company that could care less who I am. However the the difference in price of chargers is much more considerable and actually the Tenergy charger so far is the one recommended by the members here. So in all likelihood I will buy the Tenergy charger.
I do believe in dealing with the local hobbyist/enthusiast ahead of the big box internet catch all store. But at some point I have to mind the pocket book also.
Since I reopened this can-o-worms, let me state that BC I would have gone best, but since beating cancer and being forced to go on SS early, I asked about a cheaper charger. I’m trying to hang onto what I have.
I bought my R/C equipment from a forum sponsor too, maybe a different forum tho’, but Del is a nice guy too.
John
John Caughey said:
Are 8 cells in a 14.x v pack considered 2x 4 in series or is an 8 cell pack?
Seems chargers are rated by number of cells (s)
My packs are 14.8v 4400mAh
John
Yes, chargers are specified in series cell count and technology specific voltage’s.
An eight cell, 14.4V, 4400mAh battery Li-Ion battery is known as a 4S2P 4400mAh battery.
4S = four 3.7V cells in series.
2P = two sets of cells in parallel
The charger you noted will suffice for your needs and it works on 12VDC/120VAC too. Big thing IMO with a chargers is the ability to feed the battery what it specifically requires. Most of the dedicated units fall very short herein. The ability to provide proper amperage ratings is generally where they fall short at the least, again IMO.
Michael