The 5 and 10 amp NCE systems will put out about 21.6 volts max (there is an adjustment pot).
Of course track voltage will also always be limited by that and 3 volts lower than the DC input voltage.
For large scale, I would not use 18v units. By the way, the marker lights on an Aristo mallet are 18v and you can watch them burn out on 22-23v DCC track voltage… don’t ask me how I know.
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
The 5 and 10 amp NCE systems will put out about 21.6 volts max (there is an adjustment pot).
Of course track voltage will also always be limited by that and 3 volts lower than the DC input voltage.
For large scale, I would not use 18v units. By the way, the marker lights on an Aristo mallet are 18v and you can watch them burn out on 22-23v DCC track voltage… don’t ask me how I know.
Greg
Greg - So, I have both an LGB 18v. and 24v. smoke units on order. If I use the 24v. unit, do you think the NCE 21.6 volts track power will be sufficient to burn smoke fluid well? I guess the other option is to add a resistor onto the line going to an 18 volt smoke unit…there is room to accommodate 1 - 2 resistors in the smoke stack. Of course I can test the 24 volt unit with 21 volts to see how it works…should have my shipment this Thursday.
well…
That’s a subjective term, so you will give you my subjective response: I don’t think any of the non-fan driven, non-microprocessor controlled smoke units “burn well”.
By their uncontrolled, unmonitored nature, and the restrictions in design, they cannot in my opinion as an engineer. You are running a heating element open loop with a resistance that varies and unregulated. The only way this is successful is to run conservatively, i.e. so it will not burn out in any condition of “fullness” of fluid. So, since it has to run conservatively to ensure not burning out, volumes of smoke seems out of the question.
Maybe you could experiment with the 18v unit on a 24v system and “dim” the function, but I’m also not real comfortable with PWM output to the heater since it is basically an inductor. (has anyone suggested a snubbing diode yet?) This might let you “tune” the output, and of course turn it off when dry.
That’s my opinion and experience. If you want “good” smoke, I would go with either a self contained system like the massoth, or a “direct drive” system from the decoder.
Best, Greg
If you want “good” smoke, I would go with either a self contained system like the massoth, or a “direct drive” system from the decoder.
Yes, that’s a good idea, but not really applicable to the Chloe. The boiler is diminutive, and the stack doesn’t have a lot of room neither.
Right, no “great smoking” solution for the Chloe…
As I finished up my post, IF you can run enough current through the function output AND IF you can “dim” the output AND IF you can get a 24v unit AND IF you add a snubber diode across the element to protect from transients, that MIGHT be your best bet.
That would be my best suggestion for the Chloe…
Greg
Greg and David - Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. As David mentioned, the LGB Chloe, like the LGB Olomana, is very space constrained for installing anything fancy for a smoker. So I’ll experiment around just using direct track power by-passing the decoder which I locate in the rear fuel bunker. I’ve installed these Soundtraxx Tsunmani2 4400 decoders into about 6 - 7 of these LGB Olomana/Chloe locos that I’ve sold to people, or they sent me their loco for the installation…but this is the first time someone really wanted me to add a smoker.
Looking at the pictures, LGB uses the yellow/brown wired smoke unit and the seuthe rating is 11 to 16 volts. 140 ma rating.
LGB 24 volt unit is 2 white wires and the seuthe unit is 16 to 22 volts and 100ma (this should be the hot rating, just a guess).
LGB 5 volt unit with black/white wired smoke unit and the seuthe rating is 4.8 to 6 volts and 260ma.
Interesting that the Seuthe colored wires is much the same as to what LGB is using.
Greg - I’m not going to use the Soundtraxx decoder to wire the smoke unit. Just use DCC 20 volts direct track power. So, according to Dan Pierce’s current draw data, the 18 volt and 24 volt smoke units draw the least current 140ma and 100ma (and heat). So, I could use a very small regulator at 18 volts…I saw some very small ones on Amazon today that will likely fit into either the Chloe smoke stack or in the Chloe motor block pin compartment. Or I could test the 24 volt smoke unit without a regulator. I’m not looking for perfection, just produce some smoke even if irradic. Thoughts?
Tom, remember that the regulator ic’s (the standard 3 terminal 78xx series) need a few volts “overhead” to regulate, so if you want to regulate at 18 volts, your input needs to be higher…
What DCC track voltage are you designing for? Start there.
You may need to use an LDO regulator.
Greg
Greg - The DCC track power is either 18 volts or 22 volts…I’ve asked my customer to provide that info to me. If it’s the 18 volts, then I guess I’m destined to use the 5 volt smoke unit instead of the 18 volt unit…or see how the 24 volt unit performs on 18 volts.
I don’t know what an LDO regulator is?
I’ve seen some pretty small adjustable down voltage regulators too on Amazon and eBay. The first photo is the smalla regulators I use in locos or rolling stock but it’s too large for the Chloe. The second photo shows an adjustable one I found on eBay that’s the size of a quarter: Variable or fixed input 4.5 - 28 volts DC; Constant adjustable output .8 - 20 volts DC; Rated current 2A, 3A max. Looks like a good fit for the Chloe.
Thoughts (and what’s an LDO regulator)?
Thanks
Dan Pierce said:
Looking at the pictures, LGB uses the yellow/brown wired smoke unit and the seuthe rating is 11 to 16 volts. 140 ma rating.
LGB 24 volt unit is 2 white wires and the seuthe unit is 16 to 22 volts and 100ma (this should be the hot rating, just a guess).
LGB 5 volt unit with black/white wired smoke unit and the seuthe rating is 4.8 to 6 volts and 260ma.
Interesting that the Seuthe colored wires is much the same as to what LGB is using.
Not really. I would bet that LGB buys its smoke generators from Seuthe in bulk.
Greg - My customer says his NCE DCC system puts out 14 volts to the track…he called his dealer to confirm it. Sound low to me, but guess he’s right.
Tom
I can see that for an HO NCE system, but large scale???
Sorry, LDO is “low dropout”… it allows a regulation output voltage closer to the input voltage… helps when the desired output voltage is close to the input voltage.
You can go way smaller with a 3 terminal regulator, see the LM7800 series…
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm7800.pdf
Greg
Greg - Thanks much for the three pin regulator data and website…I’ll get some of those smaller units.
Tom
Yeah, they have been around forever, are cheap, and are fixed voltage… I am not a fan of using an adjustable regulator when not necessary, if they go out of adjustment, you can easily destroy stuff.
Be aware of the heat it can generate, but in your app, it should be minimal.
Greg
When buying LM series regulators, check the spec closely. I got some that were 1/2 amp, not 1 amp. And for current under 100ma there is the 100ma version and these are very small.
Yep, but to achieve their max current, they need a heat sink, so for a couple hundred ma, a 500 ma unit would be good… much over that, just the standard TO-220 1.5 amp unit… then no heat dissipation worries.
If you read the datasheet carefully, you will see the derating as the temperature goes up. These are series regulators, and the “excess voltage” is dissipated as heat. The small adjustable “regulators” are actually adjustable switching power supplies, or a DC to DC inverter. They are more efficient and don’t heat up.
So, if the priority is size (which was stated several times) then the larger 1.5 amp regulator is cheap, and smaller than the adjustable switching units.
Greg
Status Report
I tested the 18 volt LGB smoke unit that arrived today with 13 - 14 volts DCC, my customer’s NCE DCC systems layout output, and it smoked like a champ. So I installed it in the Chloe directly to track power. Not worrying about regulators or resistors for this install!
kiss is best… congrats