Large Scale Central

LGB 0-6-2T: BadMotor, Bad Gears, Both, or Something Else?

Modeling Motive Power
#61

Yes Bill, because you are registered at G Scale Central AND you are logged in.

To prove it to yourself, go to G Scale Central, and log out.

Now click the link here… “no permission”

I’d consider joining GScaleCentral.com, a nice forum, polite, no fowl language (in both meanings), and a goldmine of experience with LGB and also European DCC equipment, not to mention nice pictures of garden layouts in the UK.

Greg

#62

Well I’ll be darn, never realized I was still signed in as every time I would pull up the site it you give me a place to “click here” if you are an existing member, learn something new every day, thanks, Bill

#63

Eric, if you don’t sign up for GScaleCentral, send me your email, I’ll find a way for you to get the document.

Regards, Greg

#64

They’ll let anyone join … even Greg …. (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

It is a nice site with a different type of layouts … and some very creative modelers…

#65

Well Sean, no one is perfect ha ha!!

Sean McGillicuddy said:

They’ll let anyone join … even Greg …. (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

It is a nice site with a different type of layouts … and some very creative modelers…

#66

Hopefully I got a grin out of you Greg! (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

I do enjoy that site as well as this one…

#67

All,

With my Little Thomas resurrection project nearly done, I had a deep think on this simmering issue because, quite frankly, it irritates me that I cannot isolate the fault that keeps this beast on the shelf. Around the same time, my annual “strategic parts order” arrived from TrainLi with new idler gears, and I positively scored on the local used market and got a used LGB powered tender for about $20, so it was time to open Glitchy Gustav and see what we could do.

My plan was to replace the idler gears one more time and see what happened, but a quick look at their shredded remains disabused me of that idea. The next thought was to take out the motor so the old boy could freewheel as the new tender pushed it along the track. Fail…the tender could not push the locomotive, and it could barely pull it. Oldest Son and I then removed the weights from Glitchy Gustav (there are three screwed to the top of the boiler) one at a time to test the impact. We found if we removed all three, placing them on the tender, the combination ambulated down the track until it hit our R1 (four foot radius) curves. Then the forward driver derailed. A few more tests showed the same results, and we opted to end them rather than risk damaging the new powered tender in pursuit of an answer.

I thought I’d share the above as much to record my observations for my own purposes should I have a brainstorm later, but I am wondering if the fact the thing wouldn’t freewheel absent its motor and derailed while being pushed may indicate anything beyond “Glitchy Gustav is old, worn out, and ready for a happy retirement as a static display.”

Oh, and I see I failed to follow-up on some of the notes about a suggested website for answers. Apparently, I missed the “watch this topic button.” My apologies!

Until the next time inspiration strikes…good thing I have plenty of other projects in the meantime!

Eric

#68

Meanwhile, in the never ending story department…

One of the advantages of having become a frequent visitor of the historical railroad is that I’ve slowly built up a network of people here who actually have model trains. Anyway, a fellow opened this old loco up and it turns out there is warpage and / or wear in the motor mount, causing it to shake about. He suggested I see if I cand find a way to “snug” it, possibly by banding the motor or lining the moutn. Can’t hurt. Everything else has failed. I’ll get Glitchy Gustav back next weekend, rip “him” open, and try again.

The saga continues…

Eic

#69

The Eternal Project Continues:

The fellow at the museum took Glitchy Gustav apart (again). I am sharing his findings for comment and for the record:

  • Issue: "The motor is loose on its mount, which blows out the idler gears
  • Suggestions:
  • Best solder small wires to bus from motor terminals
  • Use care that the motor is mounted with just enough pressure to drive the idler gears smoothly (too tight they can strip, too much than can bind)

With a sudden influx of time, I am going to crack this open (again) to see if I can find a way to bind the motor to the chassis. Failing that, Bill Barnwell located a m2071 chassis on e-Bay, and I may take the swing.

Cane cars to build, shorty coach to “coach,” and loco to repair. We are rigged for plague avoidance!

Take Care and Stay Healthy!

Eric

#70

All Stop.

Despite my best efforts, a screw (non-critical) and the after thrust bearing (critical) went AWOL. No point in sealing it up, but, on the other hand, it did give me a chance to test the warped or worn engine mount theory.

After separating the two halves of the “clam shell” chassis, I set the motor in place, screwed the lid on that side of the clamshell, and wiggled and stared at the thing. It does seem to have some play, but I canto tell if this would go away when I close the clam shell and bolt it all together. There might be places internal to the chassis where I could run small zip ties. worth a shot. The other option, I think, would be to take black electrical tape and run it around the circumference of the “seat” where the motor sits. Of course, if it either fails, I am out a $12 set of idler gears…

That e-Bay option is starting to look really, really good…

Time to pack this up safely, take a walk, and get set for the next project.

Eric

#71

Update (Subtitle: Confessions of an e-Bay Coward):

I used the time on hand to really stare at the photos on e-Bay. The chassis shot showed a hole under the center driver with what appeared to by a brass bus coming out of it. I am not sure if this was “stock” for some models or an ancient modification for unknown purposes. Though I could plug it, it would leave a weaks spot in the underbelly of a train designed to run outsid If mine ran, I would still buy this for the other parts (push rods, side rods, motor, motor block, etc.). My gut was telling I might be spending money on new problems, and, as the price+shipping was starting to approach sending this to TrainLi and having them look at it for a permanent fix, I went with my gut.

To review - and to make it easier for me to find my record of events - here is what I’ve tried over the years:

  • I replaced the idlers, and I ground them out again.
  • I disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled everything, and replaced the gears. The idlers ground out out another time.
  • I replaced the siderods, which had slight bends, and, yes, ground out the idler gears.
  • Over the summer, I talked TrainLi’s repair team, pulled the motor, and pushed the locomotive along to see if I could feel obvious binding. I did not.
  • In the fall, my son and I stripped the locomotive of its weights and motors and tried to push it using a powered LGB tender. The tender did this only with great difficulty, so maybe something is binding after all.
  • Most recently, a local LGB enthusiast took a look and suggested the motor mount was not holding the motor securely, causing it to unseat enough to grind the gears. Unfortunately, I see no way to snug down the motor. And, of course, the only way to test the repair is to risk another set of idlers!

My suspicion is that somewhere along the line the chassis got warped or a bit of debris did wear out a critical part of the motor mount or even the axle holes, causing things to misalign. Given, that, I inquired about the availability of new-old stock of this “calm shell” motor block or the adaptability of the motor block of the superficially similar modern “LGB 25701 DR class 99 Steam Locomotive."

I have thrown enough money and time on this restoration, I feel like a gambler that knows the next roll has to go his way because his bad luck streak has gone on so long. Repair just seems to elude my novice eyes, and it constantly seems another $15 part away from me. I have just reached the point that I want to get it done right once and for all so we can enjoy this lumbering beast once again in our garden.

Thanks for letting me vent on this never-ending thread.

Back to my cane cars.

Eric

#72

Take the motor out and push it around with your powdered tender like the Playmobil 4-4-0, know you said you tried it before but now that you have changed the side rods and things it might push easier

#73

Bill,

That was WITH the new siderods!

Eric

#74

That’s not good I can push my Mason Bogie with a motor and gears and everything turns, can’t tell you, the playmobil western engine had weights in it but not a lot and their tender was fairly heave, did you try adding weight to the LGB tender. That chassis should roll down a 5% grade with no help, I’m at a loss, Bill

#75

Maybe it binds only right side up, not upside down? Axle “bearing” issue?

For all the gears it has eaten, I’d be sorely tempted to give up on it. Las Vegas rules: never change a winning game, ALWAYS change a losing one

#76

Bill & Greg,

This whole issue bugs me to no end. Not just because a beautiful old locomotive is out of service, but more because I cannot determine why it is out of service. This is the only one of my '80-s vintage iron horses that defies repair. If I could see the error, I could let it go a lot easier. It is like a sore joint that aches for no reason other than it does. And it is irritating as all #$#$^…

Eric

#77

well, I would look at what you have NOT replaced… clearly the gears and siderods are not at fault. The body shell is irrelevant.

has motor been replaced?

I suspect you do have some binding in the geartrain you have not discovered.

How much time and money total are you willing to invest?

Greg

#78

Eric,

The picture on 12/11 with halve of the motor block assembled with NEW idlers clearly suggest to me that the motor is not properly aligned with the idler gears. Note the gap on the left side as compared to the right idler and worm. The motor alignment is an issue IMO. The motor does not appear to be perpendicular to right angles. Is the motor held in place with the block halves molded for centering the motor end bells? Or is there a cradle, or?

Michael

#79

Eric, all I see from the 12/11 picture is it looks like the motor isn’t low enough in the housing to engage the idler gears properly, but then again it might just be the picture but the worm gear should engage the idler gear and I’m not seeing how a warped housing could be the problem, worn yes warped no

#80

Eric

The black rings Dan mentions in his post on 10/12/2017 beginning with “since the model 2017 was mentioned” maybe missing. These “BLACK RINGS” hold/retain the motor in place. I’d guess the gaps I noted above would tighten up if the rings are missing.

Michael