Large Scale Central

Installing a security system?

General Discussion
#12
Jon Radder said:
While I sympathize with your desire to add protection I can relates some of my experience. At my PT job I manage video surveillance systems that cover three restaurants and a housing complex. Over the years there have been many incidents caught on video; everything from theft of materials, armed robbery, assaults, property damage and more. In not one single case where the perpetrator was not already a known person did having video help in making an arrest. In the case of the armed robbery the perp was caught on 4 different cameras but only a few frames on each as the entire robbery took less than 20 seconds. Caps and hoodies protect faces and most surveillance cameras are of such low resolution that vehicle license plates can not be read. Don't believe the enhancement technology you see on CSI. If there is nothing there to start with you can't enhance it.

What I’m trying to say is don’t spend a bunch of cash on a video system expecting to be able to apprehend those who do crimes against you. They work well against employee theft or damages done to properties by tenants, but these are all cases of known persons where the perp can be recognized by staff. Unless you have e neighbor attacking you the best you can hope for is that obvious cameras deter the criminals.

I think the Redneck Security System (a joke going around) has just as good or perhaps better chance of deterring crime than video systems.


I would agree with with Jon… I too work in the audio/visual business as a DoD contractor on a military base. Resolution is one of the largest problems and the need to have someone monitor the surveillance systems. With budget cuts being what they are, it’s getting harder to ‘justify’ the costs versus the need. For home use, we have motion detector flood lights located around the exterior. Good Luck.

Jerry

#13

i have recently installed the second surveilance system for my store.
first council: don’t try to go cheap! (you will pay again)
i first installed small wireless cams, that could be hidden well.
but they had no infrared facility and the lights outside are not bright enough.
the quality was not good enough to identify persons.
now i got a H264 network DVR from AVTEC
that gives me 8 cameras with infrared, that record individually from four secs before movement till some minutes after last movement.
the instalation is with coxial cable plus 12V dc cable. enough holes in the walls.
the images are good enough for identification.

next step on the security ladder would be some alarms, that call the police, when set off.

#14

I would go with a motion detector with 2 50-75 watt halogen spotlights. There cheap enough. That’s what I installed over the garage doors. Granted, I didn’t do it for security reasons, but as a way to have some light in the driveway when I got back from driving at 2 or 3 in the morning. One points down in front of the doors and one into the back. I just made sure it wasn’t directed toward a neighbors house. And it comes in handy when I have to shuffle on out to the wood pile at 10 at nite for more firewood…:wink:

Crooks like to work when it’s dark and having it suddenly lite up would probably be enough of a deterant.

#15

Sorry to hear Ray.

I have aften wondered about this problem. I live in the country and work is 30 miles away. My nearest neighbor is a mile away. Although i lockup the house before I leave everyday, I cant help but feel if a crook wants to get he will and he will be able to rob me blind and I wont know until I get home at night. I looked at a security system at Sam’s club that includes 4 wireless cameras and also an option to montior remotely.

As for the game cameras, I have a couple and they could work. But the problem is if the subject is just a small distance away, they you loose resolution pretty quickly.

#16

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions!

I’m not worried about anyone breaking into the house – we already have bars on all the ground floor doors and windows. My biggest concern is someone getting into the backyard and stealing or vandalizing the railroad. I agree that motion-activated lights would probably be enough. Ironically, they would be much more difficult to install, and maybe more expensive too, since I’d have to hire a contractor to put in conduit, wiring and switches. I’m not even sure it can be done without access to the interior walls, which is not an option. But I’ll look into it. At the very least, I want to get a light over the corner of the garage where the gate is, which would also light up the “shadow” side of my car.

The video surveillance systems I’ve been looking at, I could probably set up myself and it would only cost a few hundred bucks. Still, it sounds like maybe it would have limited potential as a deterrent, and even less use for actually catching a crook. On the other hand, it might be helpful for identifying problems with four-legged intruders on the layout.

#17

No matter what is installed, the effectiviness boils down to the effectiveness of loacl law enforcment. A few years ago thee was a rash of breakin on our road (we got hit 4 times in six months). neighborood meeting resulted in no much could be done as most were needed for traffic control thus response for 911 call was often 2-4hours. The business owner accross the street noted “the next 911 call will be for an ambulance.” 6 weeks later when he made that call, response was immediate and the purpetrators caught, no more breakins.

#18

Years ago we built a new shed to house all the lawn equipment. Within a month that was broken into. The door was practically destroyed and they stole everything with a gas engine.
We fixed the doors, new hasp and new lock…. 6-8 months later we were broken into again. The cops said the first one was a setup. The bandits would come back about 6 months later to steal the brand new replacement equipment. I had to laugh.

We now leave the shed open with a big chain running through all the gas equipment.
No more wrecked doors.

Contrary to the recommendations of local police, we also now leave the cars open. I make sure to hit the unlock button when I park. I just don’t leave anything in the car.
Result: no more broken car windows and if a pro wanted the car a door lock wouldn’t stop him.

We do have a central station alarm system and signage around the house. I purchased the equipment and had it hard wired. The yearly charge is significantly less than the big national companies that “give” you the equipment and “free” installation. BTW, that equipment from those companies is usually a wireless system requiring regular battery maintenance.

#19

If you are going to install a surveillance system forget about PC based systems, go for an embedded DVR with a minimum 500 gig hard drive - much better quality picture and takes up less space. There are a lot of affordable systems on the market nowadays - go for one which can record in D1 H.264.

Connect the DVR and the cameras to a UPS as crooks often cut the power to properties with surveillance systems. The new DVR’s even let you hook up to your mobile smart phone. The more TV lines the cameras have the better your picture.

The fact is, they are only a deterant and many crooks know that it is really difficult to positively identify anyone anyway and so they often don’t care if they are recorded; where we live surveillance material seldom is admissible in our courts. We have a huge problem with metal theft in Africa and garden rails are a prime target; especially if they are brass! I find it best to install 6 foot pencil beams across access points linked up to a 24hr armed response company, I use ADT who installed a Caddex 8 alarm system with external and internal passive pet proof beams.

If someone really wants to steal or vandalize your stuff they will do so irrespective, just try make the guy living next door appear to be an easier target! Surveillance systems give you some peace of mind and after an incident a better idea of what went on.

#20

Drug related crimes have been on the upswing for some time in my area. The nice thing is they go after the easy money so locked garages and cars usually keep them out. Plus, the buildings on my layout have no significant resale value and wouldn’t be easy to fence so they have been left alone. The best security system I ever had was a 110 pound german shepard. I know dogs aren’t practical for everyone but this ole boy kept everyone at bay and he was smart. He wouldn’t just bark to make noise he knew who was coming and going and kept watch over the kids well, like a shepard!

#21

A simple deterrent I’ve found is the “Driveway Motion Sensor” sold by Harbor Freight.

I keep one inside of my train barn and another in front of my garage. They sell them in several different channel numbers, so I can tell if someone is inside the barn or in the driveway. They only sell for about $12. If you have a fenced back yard so no stray animals can get in, you can position one to cover that area also.

http://www.harborfreight.com/wireless-driveway-alert-system-93068.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiNTE4NjA0OTEiLCJza3UiOiI5MzA2OCIsImlzIjoiMTIuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk IjoiMjUyNSJ9

Regards,
Mark

#22

About 10 years ago somebody broke into a friend’s garage and tried to steal his 350# anvil. They got it about halfway across the floor before being interrupted.

The local cops were telling my friend that they had “nothing to go on” to investigate further.

I suggested they call around the local hospitals and inquire if a couple guys had come in with their nuts dragging on the ground…

they weren’t amused.

My friend said next time he was going to add a 30 cup coffee urn and a case of donuts to the theft report list. That way they might at least LOOK.

Get a Doberman

#23
Mik said:
About 10 years ago somebody broke into a friend's garage and tried to steal his 350# anvil. They got it about halfway across the floor before being interrupted.

The local cops were telling my friend that they had “nothing to go on” to investigate further.

I suggested they call around the local hospitals and inquire if a couple guys had come in with their nuts dragging on the ground…

they weren’t amused.

My friend said next time he was going to add a 30 cup coffee urn and a case of donuts to the theft report list. That way they might at least LOOK.

Get a Doberman


The problem is if you dont have solid evidence (finding an injured person at the hospital that fits the injury) it will never stand up in court. You can thank our lawyers for that.

#24

A very nice policeman (from another jurisdiction) once told me that they can’t spend much time investigating stuff that they don’t think the DA will prosecute… even when there IS a solid chain of evidence. It’s too much like paperwork, costs too much, and just frustrates the investigating officer.

Some local departments (and county prosecutors) are better than others.

Unfortunately, our locals (actually State Police) just tell us to “take pictures”… whether it’s vandalism, animal abuse (we have a local cretin who’s hobby is torturing and strangling cats), theft, or even assault. I hate to think what it would take to actually get them to send a car sometime before the next day.

#25

Ray, solar powered, motion-activated lights are easy to install, and can be installed anywhere outdoors where the solar panel will get plenty of sunlight during the day. The only wire is from the solar panel to the light fixture. Mine has been more reliable than an electric-powered unit I have elsewhere. I would have a big smart dog like Terry Burr’s if I thought it wouldn’t excrete all over the layout or dig up the track.

#26

Reading this, several things come to mind:

Ray … there are a bunch of alarm options that use wireless components (battery powered…) and solar cells would make those run for quite a long time. CCTV of one kind or another, as long as the quality is high enough to recognize suspects, can be helpful in identifying the people who cause problems. If you find the siren isn’t deterring would be crooks, perhaps a loudspeaker recording of gunfire … :slight_smile:

I’ve made a career out of emergency communications … and I can understand a lot of the frustrations. There are limited resources to begin with, and a single visit from an unknown criminal who’s gone when you discover he’s been is extremely hard to solve, even if you have a photo, or a good description, and most neighbors, far from looking out for each other, “don’t want to get involved.” Also, if what you’re calling about is not in progress (meaning there’s no suspect to catch in the act,) most departments these days aren’t coming lights and sirens, and will deal with the stack of “in progress” reports before moving on to the “report only” calls. Small consolation if it’s your stuff, I know. Unfortunately, there’s enough misuse of the system that a lot of folks with legitimate reasons to call for law enforcement end up with unreasonable wait times because so many other people find it necessary to call law enforcement for everything from wrong drive through orders to children who won’t do homework (or maybe just don’t understand the difference between “emergency” and “inconvenience”) and the folks with the legitmate concerns feel like nobody cares.

Your mileage may vary, of course, but in my personal and professional experience, in a lot of cases it’s not that we don’t care, it’s a matter of system overload.

#27
Matthew (OV) said:
if what you're calling about is not in progress (meaning there's no suspect to catch in the act,) most departments these days aren't coming lights and sirens.
Many times I'd really settle for AT ALL...... "In progress", with pictures, a known perp (even with a single track in the fresh snow with part of the stuff sitting right outside the thief's front door) doesn't seem to rate response here. Not beyond a cruiser simply driving through - many times a few days later. Trust me, I'm not the only one who feels this way. A couple township commissioners voiced the same concerns (after one of them suffered a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff liberated and more destroyed). If it ain't felony level, there's not much point even calling, they ain't coming.

After somebody (everybody knows who, but nobody saw him actually light the match) set a kitten on fire in the middle of the road we saw a few more patrols… for about 3 weeks. And then ONLY because we got the animal cruelty folks involved. So I can’t help but laugh (rather bitterly) every time some local municipality decides they’re going to close their local police department and turn enforcement over to the state guys… Then tell the residents that they’re going to get “equal protection”.

I understand being short handed. I understand tight budgets. I agree that life or death is a huge priority. I even understand that, being a rural area, the guy(s) on duty might be 20 or so minutes away. But when stuff happens (again) I just can’t help but be reminded of this story, even if it’s bogus: http://www.snopes.com/crime/safety/response.asp

But that would probably just land ME in jail

If it wasn’t for a couple neighbors (BIG guys) telling the midget mafia that if they damaged my layout again that they weren’t going to bother calling the police, I probably wouldn’t have track left (gas, tools, and anything else not bolted down that’s light enough for somebody to carry seems to still be fair game… even with a lock on the shed they just shoved the doors off the tracks)

If it’s valuable, and you like it, don’t leave it outside.

#28

I did not read all of these.
But this winter we have been remodeling a “flip” house for my son. The garage got broke into. but nothing was taking becuase “we think” no lights was wired in yet and they could not see.
So we used Ben’s two deer cameras about $80 each chained to a tree and high on the house. Infer-red flash with motion. we gave the computer chip to the police and they tried to make it better to ID the theives. Since then we installed better lighting and woow , we are very happy with the clear photos, mainly of us coming and going.
But we feel we are ready for them next time.

I am planning to do this in the train shop and work shop.

#29

First, let me say I truly feel for anyone who gets violated.
Second, I am reminded of whoever it is comes to the ECLSTS with the diesel horns on top of his truck. Now, if you had a set of these and some floodlights set to a motion detector — whoooo, boy!!!

#30

@Lou That reminds me of a car alarm system that installed inside the car an alarm horn that was so loud that some one could not stay inside the car as the Dbs were so high as to cause physical pain. It was ruled as illegal to install as if it went off while you were driving, you had to immediately bail out of the car or go painfully deaf.

#31

Costco has a LED flood light with a camera and motion detector. It will follow motion from side to side and take a video while it is monitoring the motion and put the video on an internal SD card. Of course, the LEDs, which are bright, only come on when it’s dark. The 1 meg SD card can hold 500, 40 second incidences of detected motion. I gotta have one (or more) and they’re only…$159. Not solar however.