Large Scale Central

High speed rail in this country

General Discussion
#21

Vic Smith said:

But as long as a small but vocal minority in DC continue to try and kill Amtrak (so we can all have to pleasure of forced cattle-prodded by TSA agents) its going to continue to be under Damocles Sword.

Vic, what makes you think the TSA wouldn’t treat rail passengers the same way they do air passengers? There’s already talk of increasing screenings to prevent terrorist attacks on trains, in light of the successful attacks overseas. I think the main reason the tight screenings haven’t been done here yet is because there just aren’t that many people traveling by train.

I love trains, but the fact is they are outdated technology, at least as far passenger service goes. Even in their heyday, passenger service was rarely a money-maker for the RRs. Railroads are best suited for moving extremely large quantities of material.

#22

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

But let’s turn back the clock by 60 or 70 years. There used to be good passenger rail service in NA, it went away when everyone “needed” a car. Not necessarily for strictly practical purposes, but to “keep up with the Jones” amongst other reasons. BTW same thing happened with public transportation of any kind. Streetcars? Who needs them! Interurbans? Another relic! And on and on it went.

Reading up on what happens at AMTRAK and VIA - from the start and ongoing - sure opened my eyes (even wider) to the assinine transportation policies we have in NA.

If you go back that far, you will find General Motors actively buying and closing streetcar lines in order to sell more buses. They weren’t bad - just in the way of progress.

#23

Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD said:

There is another factor that few North Americans seem to care about…“Sitting behind the wheel, staring at the road”…risking life and limb, driving that automobile…hoping that some lunatic won’t go off the deep end and crash into them…suffer the fatigue of driving…and causing the death or injury of their passenger…oh…it won’t happen to me…I haven’t had an accident in years…oh…I relax when I’m driving…

I suppose for some folks driving might be a chore, but don’t pretend it’s that difficult for all of us. At least when I’m driving, I’m in control (at least, to the greatest extent possible). I’m not putting my life in the hands of some strangers who can’t possibly care as much about my life as I do, and may not even be minimally competent. Nor do I have to worry much about getting mugged, or some terrorist bombing my car, or some nutjob shooting everyone onboard, etc.

Besides, I’d much rather be “sitting behind the wheel, staring at the road”, than having my time wasted and patience tested by inefficiency and crappy service.

I don’t go anywhere I can’t drive, and I never will.

#24

Bruce, thanks for the interesting time and cost numbers. But it seems to me that some of your numbers are for one way and others for a round trip. Some clarification would be appreciated.

Bill

#25

Ray Dunakin said:

I love trains, but the fact is they are outdated technology, at least as far passenger service goes. Even in their heyday, passenger service was rarely a money-maker for the RRs. Railroads are best suited for moving extremely large quantities of material.

Sometimes that “large quantity” can be people. However, there isn’t a demand for long-distance high speed rail. It makes economic sense when you have large population density and distances in the 100-500 miles.

To give you some perspective, I’ve been visiting England this year, flying in to LHR and taking the train. Most UK limited-stop trains run at 125mph, which is slow by Euro high-speed standards, but gets you 100 miles in about 1 hour (including a few stops.) There are trains every hour (every 1/2 hour in rush hour) covering a route of 200-300 miles. You can buy a ticket for a particular train, or pay more to travel on any train that day.

The trains are packed, because the highways are also packed and the police diligent at using cameras and other tools to catch speeding. The trains run from the city centers, but also stop at the beltway/outer ring road - just like Amtrak does on the NE Corridor (BWI, Metropark, Newark Airport, etc.)

Cars will always be preferable until the roads get too crowded, or until the gov decides to bump the gas tax to pay for more high-speed trains or more airports (as they do in Europe.)

I had a sticker on my SUV saying “I’d rather be on the train” [NARP slogan.] I always wanted something like “If you subsidize the trains thru your gas tax, there’d be fewer idiots on your roads”, but that isn’t quite as catchy.

#26

Well, when you look at most (I said most) passenger rail service in other countries, its subsidized by the government. When you look at passenger rail service in this country, most railroads were glad, and maybe even eager, to turn their service over to Amtrak. Passenger rail service is not usually a money maker. Especially when the passenger railroad has to maintain their own track. Yes, there are exceptions. But my opinion is; if it was a money maker, some private company would already be doing it.

High speed rail is more costly then regular rail travel. The tracks have to be elevated so as to not have grade crossings, the track has to be meticulously maintained, as does the equipment. At over 100mph, any failure could cost a lot of lives, and a lot of money.

There was a transportation system proposed here called Sky Bus. It was a public transportation system, no not high speed rail, but it also turned out to be too costly per passenger mile. It was an elevated system, no grade crossings, and supposedly it could have been developed into an autonomous system…no drivers. One of the sky buses is preserved as a part of history. A failed part. And the same basic economics that doomed skybus are in play to doom HSR in this country.

I would love to see it happen, but I know that the chances of it happening are slim.

#27

Pete Thornton said:

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

…

Reading up on what happens at AMTRAK and VIA - from the start and ongoing - sure opened my eyes (even wider) to the assinine transportation policies we have in NA.

If you go back that far, you will find General Motors actively buying and closing streetcar lines in order to sell more buses. They weren’t bad - just in the way of progress.

Yes, I’m aware of that too. Read a few items on “progress”, too. Matter of fact for the first five years this side of the pond I couldn’t get over the “going back to the past” feeling in industry and general outlook - both sides of the border.

#28

Ray Dunakin said:

Vic Smith said:

But as long as a small but vocal minority in DC continue to try and kill Amtrak (so we can all have to pleasure of forced cattle-prodded by TSA agents) its going to continue to be under Damocles Sword.

Vic, what makes you think the TSA wouldn’t treat rail passengers the same way they do air passengers? There’s already talk of increasing screenings to prevent terrorist attacks on trains, in light of the successful attacks overseas. I think the main reason the tight screenings haven’t been done here yet is because there just aren’t that many people traveling by train.

I love trains, but the fact is they are outdated technology, at least as far passenger service goes. Even in their heyday, passenger service was rarely a money-maker for the RRs. Railroads are best suited for moving extremely large quantities of material.

By that logic ocean liners should not exist yet they have been effectively repurposed as cruise ships. Why can’t train travel be similarly repurposed? As for TSA I can’t say one way or another. Thats remains to be seen.

#29

Bill Ness said:

Bruce, thanks for the interesting time and cost numbers. But it seems to me that some of your numbers are for one way and others for a round trip. Some clarification would be appreciated.

Bill

Bill, costs were round trip. Time was one way.

Pete, you’re right, I didn’t count depreciation and what not, just immediate money out of pocket - which is what I go by. Yes, I’ll probably buy another car in the future, but I also don’t consider depreciation and oil when I go to the grocery store, either. (If I did, I’d probably take a cab everywhere.) :wink:

To me, driving is still very convenient. If I get up earlier than planned, I can go right away - I’m not relying on a schedule. I can bring whatever fits in my car, not just what fits in my suitcase.

#30

NYC Unlimited ran from Albany, NY to Chicago at 85-95 MPH. Steam no less!!! What killed high speed on this line-each city and town with a crossing set speed limits of 30-35 MPH. NY State was to build a test section of 11 miles in front of my house. $32 million using existing right of way and upgrading track bed. BUT 3 crossing would be limited to 45 MPH. Lost before start. Also no infrastructure in cities to move anyone once arriving at depot.

I am a proponent of modernizing freight rail like Japans. Model it after UPS or Fedex. complete computer control. place UPS, Fedex and other freight terminals next to siding distrubution centers vs near airports. Have containers unloaded in minutes vs weeks and use rolling/switching system to place containers in right terminal. Thus moving good in days vs weeks. We did it once with produce from Calif and beef from Chicago to east coast. Why can’t we do it today?? Rail cost are about 20% of trucking. the problem is inventory sitting in sidings for weeks to be properly routed and delivered is a higher overhead than the gas and driver for the truck.

#31

Bruce Chandler said:

To me, driving is still very convenient. If I get up earlier than planned, I can go right away - I’m not relying on a schedule. I can bring whatever fits in my car, not just what fits in my suitcase.

As I commented to my wife yesterday as we drove across Florida (past the Sanford Autotrain terminal - but that’s another story,) you and Bob live in exactly the wrong place to use trains. You’re both miles from the local center of population, and miles from the nearest public transportation.

If you lived in the city centers, the story would be different. Or if there was a decent gas tax to pay for public transport - but then we don’t consider the car a “necessary evil” - yet.

#32

I read through the entire threads and I wanted to thank all of you for responding.

I have some thoughts.

The Acela is a limited specific run between two points on a map. With few stops, she makes the trip between Washington DC and Boston in roughly 6 hours. Traveling between 125 and 150 MPH, most passengers do not even feel as though they are moving. It is that smooth.

The Acela was manufactured by Bombardier a French company. The locomotives are the most modern running on rails today in this country. They are also the most powerful locomotives coming in at 6000 HP each. Speed, reliability and safety are the primary concerns for Amtrak’s Acela program.

I have travelled this country from one end to the other. Cars, trucks, planes and buses as well as Amtrak. I strongly support an alternative source of transportation. One that can move two and one half “jumbo jets” worth of people safely, effectively and with comfort. Acela is only the tip of the Ice Burg!

Trains will evolve and we humans will evolve right along with them. The need for HSR is not a matter of choice. It is imperative. The population growth and amount of vehicles on the roads ought to be a good indicator of how serious this really is.

BTW. The Acela is quite capable of speeds at or just over 200 MPH.

#33

Stacy Krausmann said:

…
The Acela was manufactured by Bombardier a French company. The locomotives are the most modern running on rails today in this country. They are also the most powerful locomotives coming in at 6000 HP each. Speed, reliability and safety are the primary concerns for Amtrak’s Acela program.

…

Actually Bombardier is a Canadian company

800 René-Lévesque Blvd. West
Montréal, Québec
Canada H3B 1Y8

Joseph-Armand Bombardier

  1. Joseph-Armand Bombardier
    Inventor

  2. Joseph-Armand Bombardier was a Canadian inventor and businessman, and was the founder of Bombardier. His most famous invention was the snowmobile. Wikipedia

  4. Born: April 16, 1907, Valcourt

  5. Died: February 18, 1964, Sherbrooke

Apart from rail equipment - many plants in many countries - they are also busy in the aviation industry http://www.bombardier.com/en/aerospace.html

PS Québec is a French speaking province of Canada

#34

It was suggested to me to read a book called “Getting There”. I did. What a eye opener that was on what really went on in North America regarding who or what was responsible for getting rid of PTC. LA was just the tip of the iceberg with GM. Henry Ford also was responsible for getting rid of it along with a tyre company and a certain petroleum company in other cities. I can recall a photo taken of the L.A. Basin in the 70’s on a cloudless, windless day and a blanket of brown haze is VERY noticeable over the whole basin. Cause? Car exhaust fumes. Also the demise of some of the regional R.R.s was carrying the concrete for the interstate highways that was their last profit turner. An interesting book indeed.

#35

For a business trip I took for my company I needed to go from Boston to DC.

I took the night owl and had a compartment on the train. Round trip train ticket at that time was less than 2 nights at the hotel. Parking for my car at the airport was to be $55, parking at the train station was free.

Travel time did not matter, I was sleeping for most of it in a bed on the night owl!!!

Oh, and breakfast included, not 10 peanuts!!

#36

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

High Speed Rail or High Frequency Long Distance Rail works if there is high population density, high traffic loads on the roads, convenient access points to rail with supporting feeder modes to get to the access points AND an integrated concept regarding service and price.

(http://www.bav.admin.ch/dokumentation/publikationen/00475/01623/01624/index.html?lang=de&image=NHzLpZeg7t,lnp6I0NTU042l2Z6ln1acy4Zn4Z2qZpnO2Yuq2Z6gpJCDd3t9hGym162bpYbqjKbXpJ6eiKWhm4yf4w--)

The above dates back to 2010 and lists the per capita rail-kilometers. Switzerland is way ahead of Japan, despite lacking HSR. A typical case of the integrated service and price concept.

PS the Swiss pride themselves on being world champions in rail travel.

Of course, they are qualified to be complacent in a country only slightly larger than Maryland, and where much of the population are millionaires off somebody else’s money.

tac
swissrifles.com

#37

Stacy Krausmann said:

Japan, China, Europe to include France and Germany, all have some form of high speed rail network.

…and so does the UK, since around 1976.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS

#38

tac Foley said:

…

Of course, they are qualified to be complacent in a country only slightly larger than Maryland, and where much of the population are millionaires off somebody else’s money.

tac
swissrifles.com

I don’t think they’re complacent, but they do set different priorities. For instance they have a special fund to finance large rail projects http://www.bav.admin.ch/alptransit/01376/01377/?lang=de The fund receives money from

a) heavy road users aka levies on transport trucks

b) a portion of the taxes raised from the sale of petroleum products

c) VAT (value added tax)

All in all a broad base of sources, none of which would be welcome in other jurisdictions, but have been affirmed by the Swiss populace in referenda and in some instances initiated via popular initiatives. As the statistics prove what is being built is heavily used i.e. it isn’t the usual “what comes first the chicken or the egg” routine.

#39

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Stacy Krausmann said:

…
The Acela was manufactured by Bombardier a French company. The locomotives are the most modern running on rails today in this country. They are also the most powerful locomotives coming in at 6000 HP each. Speed, reliability and safety are the primary concerns for Amtrak’s Acela program.

…

Actually Bombardier is a Canadian company

800 René-Lévesque Blvd. West
Montréal, Québec
Canada H3B 1Y8

Joseph-Armand Bombardier

  1. Joseph-Armand Bombardier
    Inventor

  2. Joseph-Armand Bombardier was a Canadian inventor and businessman, and was the founder of Bombardier. His most famous invention was the snowmobile. Wikipedia

  4. Born: April 16, 1907, Valcourt

  5. Died: February 18, 1964, Sherbrooke

Apart from rail equipment - many plants in many countries - they are also busy in the aviation industry http://www.bombardier.com/en/aerospace.html

PS Québec is a French speaking province of Canada

I stand corrected and thank you Hans for pointing it out.

#40

Well your both kinda right…

Since when do French Canadians consider themselves to be part of the whole Canada, lol

They are more “French” then “Canadians”