Deja Vu.
Res ipsa loquitur.
Sorry to be the dumb newbie here!
Don’t want to be the reason for any Deja Vu flashbacks!
Regards, Greg
I’m just a newbie and I’m not a modeler or even very knowledgeable about trains.The idea of consistent standards seems like a great one.
But here’s the thing. I go out on a rainy Sunday in the 50s to run the trains for some guests, and its’ a disaster–everything derailing. Then I go out the next day to see what was wrong–it’s sunny and in the 60s. Lo and behold, everything runs flawlessly. Can’t make a train derail. Backing through switches, no problem. Everything includes Aristo, AML and USA 1:29 locos and rolling stock, and a Bachmann Annie with an LGB tender and Bachmann J&S coaches, each with two axles of Gary Raymond wheels and two axles of Bachmann wheels. Code 332 Aristo and LGB track, Aristo 1600 switches. Everything ran poorly on Sunday: a day later it all ran like a swiss watch
So I guess I’m wondering–and I really don’t know–will a set of standards fix that variability? I know it’s fun to get everything spec’ed up, and I like the idea, but if a ten degree difference is enough to go from working to not working, will stricter standards fix the problem? Or is it just that i have sloppy track work?
mike omalley said:Mr O'Malley, meet Mr Murphy, infamous wrecker of best-laid plans.
I go out on a rainy Sunday in the 50s to run the trains for some guests, and its' a disaster--everything derailing. Then I go out the next day to see what was wrong--it's sunny and in the 60s. Lo and behold, everything runs flawlessly.
I was having a discssion a few days ago, refecting on the Convention. It was pointed out to me that when Mr. Polk was asked about his R/C what was cast for the future? He responded that what ever it was we’ll change to it. What happens to the existing equipment? Throw it out a start over. I hope I have that right. The point of this is Mr. Polk has already done this in his R/C product progression. But that is not the issue, it is more of an issue if some new set of standards is created which will obsolete an established infrastructure; i.e., like track. Or switches or both.
In interesting aspect of the “New” standards is that they are hanging their hats on the check gauge. An effective tool, but can very damning if the standards are not set carefully. One of the variables in the standards is the allowance for various thicknesses in wheel flanges. Their reason is to make the G1MRA 1.575" B-T-B measurement unusable, so we become dependent upon the new litany. Why not limit the flange thickness so a standard back-to-back can be used. And by the way, we don’t use 1.575" becauseit makes easier to gauge/assembl wheelsets.
One epistle I learned from Gary Watkins is “to remember we all run on the same track”. Lets hope that doesn’t change (regardless of code size).
Barry - BBT
Chris,
Always remember O’Toole’s comentary on Mr. Murphy. “Murphy’s an optomist”.
Barry - BBT
Barry, So far I have only read that Lewis would like to adapt the wheel standards that NEM-MOROP specifies. Fine! Does he really believe that the NEM-MOROP wheel standards can be looked at in isolation? Does he realize that the NEM 310 Standard specifies both the wheels and the track dimensions and tolerances? (Note: no, I won’t be posing that question over on the Aristo Forum!) OK for those who haven’t seen the NEM 310 specs the track gauge runs from 45.00mm to 45.30mm. Years ago I obtained a Wide-Radius Turnout from our distributor (that is random off the shelf!), measured and tabulated the dimensions all nicely. Please have a look for yourself and decide where there need to be MAJOR changes. Anything that has a 2mm tolerance spread instead of the 0.3mm specified may need a bit of improvement!
Barry Olsen said:Why am I not surprised to hear that (alleged) remark from Mr Polk. This next 2.4 Ghz system will make the third frequency AristoCraft (Crest) have used for on board R/C since the start. They did stick to 27 Mhz for trackside use but from 27 Mhz to 75Mhz was supposed to produce superior performance on board. Really??? Now the move to 2.4 Ghz is supposed to not only improve the range but allow for ever more complex control systems. Maybe there is evidence there is truth to the rumour that the only reason for the change is to force LS consumers to scrap their existing equipment and get with the latest and greatest advance in technology. Maybe not. I have yet to see any evidence one way or the other.
I was having a discssion a few days ago, refecting on the Convention. It was pointed out to me that when Mr. Polk was asked about his R/C what was cast for the future? He responded that what ever it was we'll change to it. What happens to the existing equipment? Throw it out a start over. I hope I have that right. The point of this is Mr. Polk has already done this in his R/C product progression. BIG SNIP Barry - BBT
Well, good luck to him.
The buying public will wake up one day.
RCS has used 27 Mhz from the outset and still does.
I see no need to radically change everything as often as possible.
Perhaps Mr Polk is actually trying to help the standardisation of wheel and track standards for altruistic reasons.
Perhaps not.
Time will tell, just like the aformentioned AristoCraft R/C history shows.
I think that certain manufactures are looking for the “silver bullet” that will solve all their problems. I have to agree that just selecting a wheel standard is impossible without selecting AND ADHERING TO a track standard. The turnouts are a far larger problem in my opinion. Right now, as far as I can see by direct observation, none of their turnouts work correctly, the frogs do not properly support the wheel at the frog.
The solution of supporting the wheel by having it ride on the flange is NOT going to work. Maybe you COULD make all NEW products with the same flange depth (yeah, Aristo, USAT and Bachmann…)… but what happens to all the EXISTING product out there?
Just change out the wheels on all your rolling stock and locos?
That’s why turnouts in the real world are not designed to support the wheel with the flange, but with the wing rails and frog supporting the wheel tread.
What happens if some grit or dirt gets in the flangeway? Your flange-bearing frog idea goes to hell in a handbasket right away.
The wheel and track specifications must be a well thought out SYSTEM.
I’d love some new WORKABLE standards.
But I’m not replacing all my locos and car wheels.
Regards, Greg
How dare you?
Consultant Ames knows exactly what he is doing.
He has generated in his own mind what prototype standards are, hence the model standards he is promoting!
Stanley is a wonderful person.
He only has your best interests in mind in all of this.
after he gets his way, of course.
As we all should know, but a few have never bothered to even check them…WHEEL GAUGE CAN BE ADJUSTED. Changing the gauge and adjusting the frog of a “Store bought” switch is much more difficult.
The track standards are most important.
…I know…sorry…YES…it is difficult to adjust the wheel gauge on most locomotives…I was thinking more of the rest of the rolling stock.
…but as mentioned by our friend Dave… “Ames, Howard & Company” will solve all of our problems.
Fred, mostly I agree with you. But when you have a situation where a flange is way too thick, no amount of adjusting can get the back to back and the “Wheel check gauge” right. I may have to buy a lathe.
I can “fix” an Aristo WR switch much faster than I can pull all the gearboxes apart on a SD45 and put in Grant’s shims.
So, it’s ain’t all fun my boy!
(most rolling stock is easy, I will agree)
Regards, Greg
But, therre is nothing wrong with their wheel gauge.
Nor, with any of their turnouts.
Come to think of it, they have never had any issue whatsoever!
Curmudgeon said:Hey Dave, ;)
But, therre is nothing wrong with their wheel gauge. Nor, with any of their turnouts. Come to think of it, they have never had any issue whatsoever!
Are you trying to tell us that the wheel gauge has the required WOW factor? To go with the rest, which also has THE WOW factor? 
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:WOW? Wonky Oversized Widgets?
Are you trying to tell us that the wheel gauge has the required WOW factor? To go with the rest, which also has THE WOW factor? :D ;) :D
Lewis has commented that the Aristocraft standards gauge was made by an outside contractor who made the gauge to standards that even Aristo do not follow in production. This product just typifies the ‘attitude’ (with no disrespect intended) that manufacturers have to each other. they produce a product in isolation, considering themselves the only manufacturer on this planet. We want co-operation not compromise from manufacturers.
Tim Brien said:Tim, All:
Lewis has commented that the Aristocraft standards gauge was made by an outside contractor who made the gauge to standards that even Aristo do not follow in production. This product just typifies the 'attitude' (with no disrespect intended) that manufacturers have to each other. they produce a product in isolation, considering themselves the only manufacturer on this planet. We want co-operation not compromise from manufacturers.
I couldn’t agree more! If Lewis made that statement, it really flies in the face of his customers! The refusal and failure of the major manufacturers to adhere to some simple track and wheel standards is really a slap in the face to all of us consumers. I too want to support all manufacturers of LS trains, but they really make it difficult.
Of course the LS user community doesn’t help much with the “. . . we don’t need no stinkin’ standards . . .” attitude. Just too bad for all of us and for potential LS model RRers.
I have chosen the standards I use for my RR and will continue to employ them. If / when I find a problem, I’m prepared to adjust my standard. There aren’t many that are necessary, but track and wheel are primary. The G1MRA and NMRA dimensions work well.
Happier RRing,
Jerry
Jerry,
copy and paste from a recent Aristo forum thread on gauging.
Quote:
#49 05-15-2008, 07:54 PM
Lewis Polk
Aristo-Craft Trains President
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Irvington, NJ, USA
Posts: 4,723
Thanks Greg,
It is my intention to make wheels available that will conform to the new specs and correct any old spec problems. I doubt I can offer them for free, but it will not be a profit center.
Our tests show that the axles are precise on every gear box, but the wheels seem to vary. The taper inside the wheel hub is done by a CNC machine, but things happen. I doubt if we had a pass/fail test for this and this might have missed variations in a design the was meant to assure a fixed gauge size each time. The tapered axel and the taper wheel hub should theoretically force an unvariable size and only if one of the measurements was off could there be a non-standard gauging of the wheels.Our Chief Engineer, Mr. Song, made a wonderful design, but they are produced 8,000 miles away. We should have caught this and I apologize, but we will fix it ASAP.
There is no reason that we cannot change the wheel flange size simultaneoudly when producing the new retrofit wheels. Therefore, we can correct all to a new standard and fix the old too.
I have asked the factory production engineers to review a way of insuring that this internal hub taper is reliable and will report back here when a resolution is found. If it is a wheel problem, the merely screwing in of a new wheel or set of wheels will help the refitting of your current collection.
Our track gauge was designed by an outside person that used the NMRA standards as a guide. It was meant to be used for all trains, not Aristo-Craft alone. At least we made it when no one else would and where was anyone else who might complain about it.
All the best,
Lewis Polk" (end quote).
Jerry, read the last paragraph - says it all. Gauge was constructed for a standard that is not and will not be used by Aristocraft. Kudos to Aristo for producing the gauge but the unintended side effect was it shows how way off manufacturers are when it comes to achieving acceptable standards of production. The first thing that modellors did when they received their gauges was to check it against their own equipment. To their surprise nothing was ‘ingauge’ as per the supplied gauge.