Large Scale Central

Free Health Care?

General Discussion
#21

The government “funds” the military, it doesn’t run the military.

Right now, we’re all paying for a socialized retirement plan and and a socialized medical plan for the elderly. Both are in trouble financially. And who foot’s the bill? Some seem to think that the people who are the most productive and contribute the most to our economy should pay for it.

What happens when the parasites outnumber the producers? When the producers refuse to produce? When society becomes more important than the individual? When the “social engineers” finally get their way? What happens when the engine of free enterprise is shut down? When those who know how to operate and repair the engine desert their posts? What happens when the nation’s producers - the creators, inventors, entrepreneurs, scientists, geniuses, and hard-workers - tell the parasites to go to hell?

#22
Ken Brunt said:
The government "funds" the military, it doesn't run the military.

Right now, we’re all paying for a socialized retirement plan and and a socialized medical plan for the elderly. Both are in trouble financially. And who foot’s the bill? Some seem to think that the people who are the most productive and contribute the most to our economy should pay for it.

What happens when the parasites outnumber the producers? When the producers refuse to produce? When society becomes more important than the individual? When the “social engineers” finally get their way? What happens when the engine of free enterprise is shut down? When those who know how to operate and repair the engine desert their posts? What happens when the nation’s producers - the creators, inventors, entrepreneurs, scientists, geniuses, and hard-workers - tell the parasites to go to hell?


Well then the gvt. could simply “fund” the healthcare system–apparently we have a model of gvt. funded enteprise that works quite well!

As to your other questions, I dunno–what happens when the sun burns out? What happens when an asteroid collides with the earth? What happens when dogs and cats start living together?

#23

How can these class-warfare demagogues sleep at night saying the rich don’t pay their fair share when 2006 official figures show the top 1 percent of income earners pay 40 percent of the income taxes; the top 5 percent pay 60 percent; the top 10 percent pay 71 percent; the top 25 percent, 86 percent; and the top 50 percent, 97 percent? Just how much would the wealthy have to pay for it to be fair?

As to my other questions and yours, the answer is simple…we all cease to exist, that’s what happens.

#24

How much to pay for it to be fair?

Roughly 2% extra on their taxable incomes.

Across the board.

#25
Kevin Morris said:
Funding for a universal health care system would be easy. Privatise the military. Let the rich pay the cost of having their foreign interests protected.

But I would advocate a mixed public and private military. Should US territory be invaded then it would be a common cause. But when some foreign dictator takes over an American oil facility in a foreign country, send in the RandCorp Task Force headed by the USS Gates and the USS Buffet.

The money saved could pay for a completely free medical system, new schools, highways, housing for the poor, universities, national parks, etc., etc.

You Yanks talk about “freedom” as if you had some sort of copyright on the word. In my opinion, the truest of all “freedoms” is good health.


“Freedom’s just another word for ‘Nothin’ left to loose.’” :smiley:

#26

One of the reasons that hospitals charge so much for Tylenols and tampons is that the gummint requires their Emergency Departments to see all comers. What that means is that those folks who don’t have physicians use the ED as their Primary Care Physician, and it is “free” to them. Someone has to pick up the tab, and that someone is you and me, in the form of $75.00 tampons and $50.00 Tylenol. I’ve taken care of many patients in hospital that were unable to pay even a dime. You and I pick up the tab. Is a Gummint run program the cure? I am not convinced. I agree that the system that is in place is not the best, but I have yet to see anything better.

As far as insurance companies making it difficult to get reimbursement for care, in the case of Mike, the free marked worked well, Mike was unsatisfied with the service he was receiving from his former provider, so he switched, and is now very satisfied. The marked worked! We have to remember that these insurance companies are in business to make money, not to provide a service to their customers. If one of their customers receives satisfactory healthcare, that is pure serendipity, not part of the business plan.

#27

Gah, the military is a model of efficiency? SINCE WHEN??? These are the guys who order $700 hammers, deep six an almost new welder because it’s easier to get a NEW one than a fuse to replace the one that blew, and use 12" off a 10 foot joint of bell bronze and toss the rest in the drink…

Yep, they are the PERFECT model for running health care.

#28
Ken Brunt said:
How can these class-warfare demagogues sleep at night saying the rich don't pay their fair share when 2006 official figures show the top 1 percent of income earners pay 40 percent of the income taxes; the top 5 percent pay 60 percent; the top 10 percent pay 71 percent; the top 25 percent, 86 percent; and the top 50 percent, 97 percent? Just how much would the wealthy have to pay for it to be fair?

As to my other questions and yours, the answer is simple…we all cease to exist, that’s what happens.


I would like to know the source of those percentages.
Look up what percentage of the wealth the top 5% control. You may change your mind.
Ralph

#29

Ralph, I’ve read those numbers in a few sources, and what they control doesn’t interest me.They earned it, it’s theirs, they can do with it what they please. They don’t stuff it in a mattress, they invest it in our economy. And if congress continues to keep taking more and more, they’ll find other places to invest it.

The way I see it, our gov’t already is way too encompassing, way too intrusive and way too manipulative of our economy and our lives. The more of our own money we can keep the better off everyone is. Rich and poor. Our Constitution reads " Of the People, By the People and For the People", that includes rich and poor.

Bottom line is, if they don’t keep spending under control, just how much will they eventually need?

"According to economists Gerald Prante and Andrew Chamberlain, the top 40% of households redistribute $1 trillion each year through the tax code to the bottom 60%. And yes, that includes the middle class.

By the way, the top 5% of earners — those squarely in Obama’s tax-hike cross hairs — already pay 60% of all taxes. Obama’s changes would skew that further.

Worse, many of Obama’s “get the rich” tax hikes are really targeted at successful small businesses that create nearly 90% of all U.S. jobs. Among tax filers with adjusted gross incomes of $200,000 or more, some 67% report small-business income."

#30
Ken Brunt said:
Ralph, I've read those numbers in a few sources, and what they control doesn't interest me.They earned it, it's theirs, they can do with it what they please. They don't stuff it in a mattress, they invest it in our economy. And if congress continues to keep taking more and more, they'll find other places to invest it.

The way I see it, our gov’t already is way too encompassing, way too intrusive and way too manipulative of our economy and our lives. The more of our own money we can keep the better off everyone is. Rich and poor. Our Constitution reads " Of the People, By the People and For the People", that includes rich and poor.

Bottom line is, if they don’t keep spending under control, just how much will they eventually need?

"According to economists Gerald Prante and Andrew Chamberlain, the top 40% of households redistribute $1 trillion each year through the tax code to the bottom 60%. And yes, that includes the middle class.

By the way, the top 5% of earners — those squarely in Obama’s tax-hike cross hairs — already pay 60% of all taxes. Obama’s changes would skew that further.

Worse, many of Obama’s “get the rich” tax hikes are really targeted at successful small businesses that create nearly 90% of all U.S. jobs. Among tax filers with adjusted gross incomes of $200,000 or more, some 67% report small-business income."


The source of those numbers, Ken.
They don’t jive with the numbers I’ve seen in the past.
As for “they’ve earned it”, if a thief steals everything you own…has he earned it?
There are many ways to steal. Bill Gates stole MS-DOS and sold it to IBM. A well known fact.
The fact of the matter is, some wealthy people earned their money…the late Sam Walton comes to mind.
Many others “earned” their money in much less noble ways.
A new number I just saw the other day…the top 5% underpay their taxes by 75%.
As I say…there are many ways to steal.
There is a reason Jesus said ““It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Matthew 19:24).”
Most(not all) people get rich by taking advantage of others. Those in the commodity markets come to mind. Provide no service, drive up prices to the rest of us, to “earn” their money. Legal yes. Moral no.
Ralph

#31

What is our overall federal spending vs. GDP? (Too lazy to look it up. – Guessing 20% - please correct.)

Back when it was only 1 or 2 percent, who, what or where the taxes came from wasn’t a huge concern, as the amounts were relatively easy to pay.

Helping the poor was from people’s charity, usually encouraged by and a function of the churches, not the government.

Massaging the tax code to “fairly” distribute the onerous burden we have now seems to take up a lot of our energy and campaign rhetoric.

We’ve kind of lost the idea that maybe we should spend less.

Interest on the federal debt is a huge portion of our taxes. (See pie chart in your US form 1040 booklet.)

Under the Federal Reserve System, all new money is created as debt (principle), which is paid back (amortized) as principle plus interest. Net effect after payback: less money in the system (interest is taken out).

How do we fix that? Create (borrow) more money. And on and on and on. The debt eventually spirals out of control.

We need some kind of a system that creates new money without debt.

#32

Ralph,
What has morality got to do with any of this?
Apart from the lack of it of course.

Joe.
A new system required eh???

How about honesty?

#33

Becoming rich is easy, as evidenced by the many “dumb asses” who are wealthy.
Doing so without taking advantage of others is much more difficult.
Ralph

#34

And what is your percentage of the numbers of wealthy people that stole it?
I’d say most of them maybe 99% earned they’re money, not just “some”. But that’s my opinion. If he’s a thief, put him in jail.
By the same token, thieves come in many disguises.

You keep asking me for sources, how about a reciprocation here. I’ve named 2. “According to economists Gerald Prante and Andrew Chamberlain”

We can argue sources all day long. My sources may be skewed, your sources may be skewed. I don’t have a problem with rich people. They kept me gainfully employed for a long time. I made a lot of money when rich people invested their money where I worked. When they didn’t, I didn’t.

#35
Ken Brunt said:
And what is your percentage of the numbers of wealthy people that stole it? I'd say most of them maybe 99% earned they're money, not just "some". But that's my opinion. If he's a thief, put him in jail. By the same token, thieves come in many disguises.

You keep asking me for sources, how about a reciprocation here. I’ve named 2. “According to economists Gerald Prante and Andrew Chamberlain”

We can argue sources all day long. My sources may be skewed, your sources may be skewed. I don’t have a problem with rich people. They kept me gainfully employed for a long time. I made a lot of money when rich people invested their money where I worked. When they didn’t, I didn’t.


Ken,
Not everything is black and white. Many things are legal that are not “right”, morally or ethically.
Even those who are rich and provide jobs…such as the late Sam Walton…could have paid his workers more…and still have been rich.
Economists writing opinion pieces are not a good source of statistics. Show me something reliable.
Ralph

#36
Steve Featherkile said:
Kevin Morris said:
Funding for a universal health care system would be easy. Privatise the military. Let the rich pay the cost of having their foreign interests protected.

But I would advocate a mixed public and private military. Should US territory be invaded then it would be a common cause. But when some foreign dictator takes over an American oil facility in a foreign country, send in the RandCorp Task Force headed by the USS Gates and the USS Buffet.

The money saved could pay for a completely free medical system, new schools, highways, housing for the poor, universities, national parks, etc., etc.

You Yanks talk about “freedom” as if you had some sort of copyright on the word. In my opinion, the truest of all “freedoms” is good health.


“Freedom’s just another word for ‘Nothin’ left to loose.’” :smiley:

“Nothin’ aint worth nothin’ but it’s free.”

#37
Ralph Berg said:
Ken Brunt said:
Ralph, I've read those numbers in a few sources, and what they control doesn't interest me.They earned it, it's theirs, they can do with it what they please. They don't stuff it in a mattress, they invest it in our economy. And if congress continues to keep taking more and more, they'll find other places to invest it.

The way I see it, our gov’t already is way too encompassing, way too intrusive and way too manipulative of our economy and our lives. The more of our own money we can keep the better off everyone is. Rich and poor. Our Constitution reads " Of the People, By the People and For the People", that includes rich and poor.

Bottom line is, if they don’t keep spending under control, just how much will they eventually need?

"According to economists Gerald Prante and Andrew Chamberlain, the top 40% of households redistribute $1 trillion each year through the tax code to the bottom 60%. And yes, that includes the middle class.

By the way, the top 5% of earners — those squarely in Obama’s tax-hike cross hairs — already pay 60% of all taxes. Obama’s changes would skew that further.

Worse, many of Obama’s “get the rich” tax hikes are really targeted at successful small businesses that create nearly 90% of all U.S. jobs. Among tax filers with adjusted gross incomes of $200,000 or more, some 67% report small-business income."


The source of those numbers, Ken.
They don’t jive with the numbers I’ve seen in the past.
As for “they’ve earned it”, if a thief steals everything you own…has he earned it?
There are many ways to steal. Bill Gates stole MS-DOS and sold it to IBM. A well known fact.
The fact of the matter is, some wealthy people earned their money…the late Sam Walton comes to mind.
Many others “earned” their money in much less noble ways.
A new number I just saw the other day…the top 5% underpay their taxes by 75%.
As I say…there are many ways to steal.
There is a reason Jesus said ““It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Matthew 19:24).”
Most(not all) people get rich by taking advantage of others. Those in the commodity markets come to mind. Provide no service, drive up prices to the rest of us, to “earn” their money. Legal yes. Moral no.
Ralph

Figures I’ve seen claim that the richest 300 people in the world control more wealth than the poorest 3,000,000,000. I’m kinda guessing that those 300 pay less than 50% of the world’s taxes.

A few months back Warren Buffet expressed dismay that he, the highest paid person in his office, paid the lowest rate of tax on his declared income. The office receptionist was the lowest paid person and paid the highest rate of income tax.

On a personal note, I’ve lived a relatively frugal life and saved my money for retirement. Shirley at the bank explained to me that I pay much less tax on investment earnings (-20% this year!!!) than I do on the money I actually work for.

#38

Dear Tony, You said:

(http://www.rcs-rc.com/pics/Family-Friends/Tony-3.jpg)

“How about honesty?” Hmm. Interesting juxtaposition here. Sincerely, Joe Satnik

#39

Joe.

Your comment is a bit too esoteric for me to understand.

I would have thought honesty would be a basic requirement for solving the problems of any society.

#40

Tony, we don’t really WANT honesty. We want to hear what we want to hear. A pretty lie beats an uncomfortable truth…at least until the election is over.

Jimmy Carter was an upright honest Christian fellow… just what many people CLAIM to want (even if he was in the wrong party)… but he was a pretty ineffective president.