The issue with this case is a person who either didnt investigate or ignored whether he was constrianed by any restrictions due to watershed requirements in his area, didnt investigate or ignored local building code requirements on his house, and now he’s paying the piper. Thumb your nose at the local authority and it is completely within their rights to order non-complying construction torn down. I have been a building inspector and have seen the results of ignoring building codes and have met the personalities who think they are above the code, you fight the law and the law eventually wins, might take a while but eventually you will have to comply with the requirements of your locality.
I too was a building inspector and zoning officer after running my own construction business for 25 +/- years, and you are correct Victor. The interpretations are often subjective, which is how I could see this situation with the code officials.
It usually takes a spiteful neighbor to file a complaint, which prompts a code official investigation often requiring retroactive permitting. This case may well have passed code requirements if permits were obtained prior to construction with some restrictions.
The bottom line is what was the grave environmental or health, safety and welfare impact to the neighborhood that warranted such a dramatic remediation? I haven’t read all the violations and appeals filed, so this may well have been problematic.
Victor Smith said:Absolutely, Vic! There were no permits or studies to dam a creek and build a pond. Nor for tunneling thru a hill, or any EPA impacts--nothing. And the building(s) without permits. Now I don't know if the man was ignorant of these studies and permits, or blatantly ignored them. Sex crimes don't even enter the picture.
The issue with this case is a person who either didnt investigate or ignored whether he was constrained by any restrictions due to watershed requirements in his area, didn't investigate or ignored local building code requirements on his house, and now he's paying the piper. Thumb your nose at the local authority and it is completely within their rights to order non-complying construction torn down. I have been a building inspector and have seen the results of ignoring building codes and have met the personalities who think they are above the code, you fight the law and the law eventually wins, might take a while but eventually you will have to comply with the requirements of your locality.
I owned a private lake once (Along with a partnership of some other families.) We had one section surrounding this lake. (620 acres).
We could not grade a road, nor build a boat launch, nor a camp ground without jumping thru all kinds of hoops. Sure, we could have unloaded a Cat and graded our own road in, but we would have been caught sooner or later.
David,
You said - “I tend to fall on the side of personal property owner being the sovereign of his land, (Some do not, so it balances out.) which may explain my position on the local zoning officials “interference” with this family’s model railroad.”
I always try to agree with “sovereignty of his land” theory and spend most of my time on the Zoning Board trying to justify why a governing body, the City of Carlyle, has the right to issue a variance and how it will impact the neighbors to where the variance is being issued. Some of my fellow citizens might question me stating this, considering a vote I recently supported of annexing property into the City that was totally surrounded by the City. However since 1975, we have lived in the same house with the same neighbors. The neighbors to the east of us have now passed away. Their children are trying to sell the property. Because of no zoning at the time of construction (early 1950’s), my wife and I own to within a foot of this house. I think this is rediculous and I think it devalues the house and will create problems in the ability to sell it. We’ll see.
Politics in Illinois are quite different than other parts of the USA, because of the accepted policy that corruption is common and part of life and the process. Most of our Governor’s eventually spend time after serving as “Head of this State” in Federal Prison. They certainly deserve it. And then, of course, if we can’t achieve throwing them in jail, we usually ship them off to Washington, DC, just to get them out of here. 
Thanks for NOTHING, Ric.
Personally I can ONLY justify municipalities exerting authority over private property e.g. zoning, taxes, building codes, with the fact that virtually no one in the USA has allodial title to their land.
It’s interesting how differently states handle local government.
David,
You said - “It’s interesting how differently states handle local government.”
I am told (and have seen it in practice in this area, twice) that the most powerful individual in Illinois politics is a “Township Road Commissioner”.
The first time was when a new section of US Highway was being constructed and they wanted to use a County/Township road to carry the materials for the new highway. The Township Road Commissioner held up the project and wanted his road replaced because of the damage that would be caused by the heavy weight and traffic on the road. The cost was high enough that the Contractors building the new section of US highway ended up renting farmers’ fields next to the county road and constructed a temporary construction road to the highway loaction. In the end all were happy because local farmer’s got paid for the disturbance in the area and the county road was open and undamaged through out the entire project.
The other time, involved the US Army, Corps of Engineers that wanted to refurbish a parking lot neighboring a private resident’s property. The Corps, in a cost saving move, thought it would be cheaper to go through this person’s property, instead of the old longer way around the property. The land owner went to court with the complaint they were not being compensated fairly for the loss of their land. The Corps, being the Federal Government, knew they would win in court and started bringing in construction equipment even before the court date. Things got very hot with land owner protecting her property with a 12 gauge, against US Marshalls. The Sheriff was called in to defuse the situation and threatened the land owner with arrest. All was quieted down and construction was agreed to begin the next morning with no further conflict. Dawn arrived finding a 10 foot culvert totally dug out on the Township Road and Township road equipment parked across the opening to the culvert, blocking total access to the entire area. With this move, the Sheriff took the higher ground and stopped all construction, until it was settled in Federal Court. Eventually the Corps got their new road to their parking lot, but the landowner was sufficiently compensated for the loss of her land and the Sheriff and the Township Road Commissioner were re-elected by a landslide.
I’ve got other stories of the US Army, Corps of Engineers Visitor’s Center being fire bombed (Spring 1990) and the unusual slow response of the Carlyle Volunteer Fire Department, which is known for its quick response time. Relationships have improved between the federalies and the locals in the last 20 years. Current battles usually involve Illinois Department of Natural Resources, Sierra Club and tree huggers. But they even know to stay clear of these areas during deer hunting season.
This is Southern Illinois. Chicago is 5 hours away.
Ric,
Reminds me of the local Parrish Sheriff in Louisiana who stopped FEMA from entering
after the hurricane.
I’d be willing to bet he was also reelected.
Ralph
John Bouck said:David, John gets to the crux of the problem in this one statement, as an inspector how do you know what was done was in compliance with any codes or regualtions when 99% of the work is now underground or buried in a structure. I cannot simply take ones word as a gentleman that they did in fact use the proper number of #5 rebar and #3 sturrups at X spacing and oh so far apart when its covered in 3 inches of concrete? Thats the basic problem here. The person responsible for ensuring the safety of said construction was not present during the process, had no plans reviewed for safety and strenth compliance, so your blind, what you see can't be let go because it looks OK from the outside. I can appreciate the tremendous amount of work put into this layout, but geez at some point he had to know he was flying in the face of the local authority, that tempers my sympathy for this. The local code enforcement officers may have simply had no other option if the owner simply refuses to ackowledge their authority. I have run into this personally in past cases, and its never a fun process for the code enforcement officers.
There were no permits or studies to dam a creek and build a pond. Nor for tunneling thru a hill, or any EPA impacts--nothing. And the building(s) without permits.
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edited to correct my spelling of Balck
The point you made Victor is very well taken when applied to an inhabited structure, protecting the health safety and welfare of the residents and the future residents if/when the property is sold.
This, (from my limited understanding 3,000 miles away) “toy train” that was built is this in NOT a for profit, commercial operation. It is the individual’s hobby layout. Hobbyists build all sorts of contraptions that can and do kill or maim them and others like experimental aircraft, homemade watercraft, model rocketry, automobiles, etc. etc. (Stupid is as stupid does. hi-hi) and correctly the government limits interfering with these hobbyists/inventors.
This seems to be all about this man’s criminal record, as abhorrent as it may have been, he still is a citizen with rights. The state decided at some point he had paid his debt to society. If not, then keep him locked up. Also it may be about the disturbing of the environment on his land, which it seems is a big political issue in that part of the country.
I agree this landowner had proper channels of appeal, and if he lost every one, then he must comply or be shot.
I havent mentioned this guys past, from my perspective, its irrelevant.
Its the building in the face of the local authority thats my issue. The thing is that he built bridges, which could fall over, and tunnels and dams which can collapse, all with the potential to harm people. As I said earlier, he had to know he was flaunting the law, so seeing this from the other side, and having been thru cases where slumlord owners repeatedly thumb their noses at building codes then after several citings and months of follow up to get them to comply, to have them then yell at me “why am I being prosicuted, I havent done anything?”, my sympathy is rather strained. I view people who do this as just plain pigheaded, they beleive their personal property rights trump all other laws, which is a great way to end up in big trouble like the slumlords I delt with.
Victor Smith said:Would you consider a variance in this instance of ?
The issue with this case is a person who either didnt investigate or ignored whether he was constrianed by any restrictions due to watershed requirements in his area, didnt investigate or ignored local building code requirements on his house, and now he's paying the piper. Thumb your nose at the local authority and it is completely within their rights to order non-complying construction torn down. I have been a building inspector and have seen the results of ignoring building codes and have met the personalities who think they are above the code, you fight the law and the law eventually wins, might take a while but eventually you will have to comply with the requirements of your locality.
"The Sheriff was called in to defuse the situation and threatened the land owner with arrest. All was quieted down and construction was agreed to begin the next morning with no further conflict. Dawn arrived finding a 10 foot culvert totally dug out on the Township Road and Township road equipment parked across the opening to the culvert, blocking total access to the entire area. With this move, the Sheriff took the higher ground and stopped all construction, until it was settled in Federal Court. Eventually the Corps got their new road to their parking lot, but the landowner was sufficiently compensated for the loss of her land and the Sheriff and the Township Road Commissioner were re-elected by a landslide. "
Get a new Sheriff The US Constitution has provisions for the local Sheriff to defend “US” from the Government bull shit" works in the peoples republic of California.
John some codes allow for variances, some don’t, depends on the instance. And variances are usually only allowed BEFORE you build, during the plan check process. For example: If its Structural variance you have to prove that the change will be as safe or safer than the usual code requirements, and if its particularly complex or unorthodox method it may require continuous inspection (can be by Deputy Inspector IOWs hired inspector)during construction to ensure its done as described. Not done very often, this fellow built dams, tunnels, and bridges, the bridges might be provable that its safe by investigating the exposed connections, but the tunnel and dam all the important stuff is buried, theres no real way to make sure its been safely built, someone mentioned the Johnstown Flood, where a private club built dam broke and devestated the region downstream, even a small pond could cause problems if it broke, so I just done see how anything like a variance could apply here, but then codes down here are likely much more complex than up there. Regardless I get the vibe that wouldnt have helped this fellow either way, as he did his own thing from the get go.
Victor, I too have had to deal with a building that was literally falling down and the owner was not taking any action to secure it. Under Penna. code, the township had the right to protect the public and demo the building and attach a lien to the property for the cost.
I agree, with the size and scope of this “model train” layout, the owner should have considered applying for permits and any “special exceptions” or “variances” needed.
My beef is one I have seen in my own township’s ZHB meetings, where one or two ZHB members will scold property owners for applying for a variance, AFTER construction has begun, even finished, as a “punishment”. (“It is easier to ask for forgiveness, than to ask for permission.”) In the Business Meeting after the ZHB meeting, I make my case to the members that it is not our job to scold or punish.
Would you have a problem with this “structure” if it was not a model that could carry passengers? That may be the fine line with this case.
I think with things like the ride on train going over the bridge in this case its that its capable of carrying people over it, that makes it culpable to loading requirements for people safety crossing it. if it was a bridge that only carried operating models but with no people, like Marty Cozads large G scale bridge, to me it would be treated like a yard feature like a fence. Permits not necessary and as long as its securely fixed theres no problem, thats my take on it anyway. I have heard of local authorities going after garden layouts like they were the real thing, even citing indoor HO layouts for fire code issues, but to me that way over the top for this dog.
I think this fella brought attention to himself by whatever means. Somehow the local government caught wind and went to inspect the place. When they saw what had been done they had no choice but to inspect and inforce. At this time the guy had two choices: pay up or fight. He chose to fight. Here in lies the problem. When you push inspectors they typically push back. The reason is by letting him “get away” with this the inspectors open themselves up to future people/projects who would use this against them. ie: you let him do it why can’t I? This ties an inspectors hands. You can’t be a “nice guy” anymore cause it will come back to bite you in the arse.
As Vic and others have stated building codes are in place for a reason. Even though he invited people, and didn’t charge them, if a bridge collapsed or tunnel caved in, he is liable. In this day and age with all the lawsuit happy fools out there one of the first questions asked would be; “when was it inspected? and by who?”. Without this in place the local government now opens themselves up for a beating as well.
Terry
Instead of all or some this speculation on this thread why don’t you guys email him for information from “the horses mouth” so to speak!! I did, he emailed me back with a nice email, and thanked me, and he DID give me a different perspective from his point of view or what he really felt or believed. Please no comments to me about his past. It was 27 years ago he paid for his cirme, he admits to it, and was voted “citizen of the year” by people out in Oregon, and NO instances since 27 yrs ago!! so the past is the past, and I am speaking from a law enforcement officer’s perspective,(retired) or just tired hah lol. I have no wish to persecute this guy, or drag this thread out anymore, and on another forum posted about this man giving up his railroad after 12 years of hard work. On that forum, and we pretty much all know about his past, it took almost 2-3 pages for someone to bring up his PAST It was supposed to be about a man and his hard work building a small railroad, over there, and having to give it up!! here it took a couple of posts!! Read what he says about being around any kids now a days. He’s got a wife, and has moved on, and if you email him and get a response like I did will get a different perspective or view of what he’s thinking now!! from the guy himself!! might surprise you!! The Regal No I don’t condone what he did either. No negative posts on me please. Just my opinion, an informed one at that!! and I’m sticking to it!! Hah LOL The Regal
Hi Jerry, I was very specific to point out that in my view that past was irrelevant, it has nothing to do with this. This is a permiting/non-permiting issue.
It was a general post after watching the thread for days, as you can see I never did post on it till now!! not pointing to anybody or anyone specifically!! Just a post to get people to go to the source, and get their information from the source!! Believe me I could write a book about the crime he committed 27 years ago. My family was a victim of this type of criminal activity! I have first hand personal knowledge of the criminal system and how it works good/bad !! I have NO sympathy for someone who commits it, but one who has and has paid for it and admits to it has not re-offended, it needs to be laid to rest, unless they re-offend then the gloves are off!! The Regal