Large Scale Central

Counterweight Mod for K from Bmann site

I usually try to refrain from posting twice in a row, and I really don’t want to seem inflammatory here, but while the technical discussion above is very good, when it comes to the concept of “REALISTIC” effects for steam locomotives, I have to take issue with some of the items on the list of things that DCC does really well to enhance “Realism.” Understand before I go any further, that the discussion of why the now infamous Ames Super Socket missed the boat (and not just by ending up on a train) is entirely correct … the issue I’m taking is with the discussion of what a steam locomotive must do to be “realistic.”

To begin with, starting a steam locomotive up is a long process. It starts, generally, with a couple of guys balling up newspaper and throwing it into the firebox, and after a couple of weeks worth of papers balled up sheet by sheet, and a couple of Sunday editions thrown in (literally) for good measure, some scrap lumber, a coffee canful of kerosene, and whatever else that’s lying around, unwanted, and appears to be readily flammable get thrown into the box. A match is struck (or, for the more seasoned, generally a couple of five minute fusees) and things start happening… sort of. For the next half an hour, the idea is to get a wood fire blazing in there, and to add some coal so that eventually what you end up with is a coal fire. As you start to actually have some coal catch, some shop air can be run through the blower (there’s a connector in the line provided for hooking it up) to increase draft… but if you’re starting at 7AM, you’re not really getting the simmering and cooking sounds until well after lunch, when you’ve finally managed to heat all that water and you’ve got a good blazing coal fire going. Still at this point, standing fifty yards from the locomotive, you’d probably only hear the bang of the firebox doors, and some conversation at this point. When steam does begin to come up, it takes a couple of hours to build to anything approaching operating pressure… and even getting enough that it makes sense to disconnect the shop air, and run the blower on steam is an accomplishment. It’s not really until you’re at or near working pressure that things really start happening, and it’s ok to open up the valve to the turbo, start the pumps, and get going on actually being ready to move that there’s a lot to hear. To condense all that into a 20 second “light off” sound with some fire flicker is like shortening the national anthem to “Oh say can you see the home of the brave?”

And … the turbogenerator I just mentioned. Generally, the turbo is spun up when the engine leaves the pit, and runs until the engine is shut down. There are exceptions to this, certainly, but it’s generally how it works. There’s a switch in the cab that is pushed forward one click for dim, then another for full bright headlight forward… or one click back for dim and another for full bright on the rear lights. In later days, there was an option provided for both lights to be on for switching purposes… but it was a later addition. Only on some restored locomotives (and generally, the smallest of these) was the headlight wired directly to the turbo, so that when it spun up, it’d come on dim, and slowly come up to full brightness. If anything, the turbo sound should slow down when the headlight is turned on, as the generator loads up when power is used. The same is true of shutting it down … only when you have a museum that has restored a locomotive, and only runs the headlight on the front at night or something is there no switch, and the fade up/fade down happens with turning the turbo on and off.

That brings me to the noise of the “Johnson Bar.” Technically speaking, the Johnson Bar is the name of the manually operated very long vertical lever on the engineman’s side of the cab that works the reverse gear … manually. That’s how it’s found on most narrow gauge, and smaller standard gauge locomotives. ALCo in particular and others thereafter began to market “power reverse” units in the more modern era of steam locomotives (see air brake and electric headlight days) that were air operated… the lever was in the same position, and had a rack and quadrant like it’s older cousin, but was generally a much shorter affair, and worked a small valve ahead of the cab on the engineman’s side. This valve operated a cylinder, very like a brake cylinder, under the running board (in many cases) which was connected to the reverse gear in the same manner the older manual one had been. A secondary connection connected the piston to the reverse lever itself. In this way, pushing forward on the reverse lever would cause the reverse gear to transit forward (and down) and to move the lever along with it, allowing the engineman a sense of where the gear was for cutoff purposes, stopping the pressure would cause the mechanism to “catch up” and stop moving wherever the lever was left. To center up, or reverse, pressure was applied in a backwards direction with the same type of result. This meant that moving from center to full forward or reverse or back again would cause a “whooshing” sound as the piston travelled (and exhausted air from the opposite side) moving the gear. A manual Johnson Bar can really only be heard if the rest of everything is very silent, and then it’s really just a clank as it hits the stop. So, to be “realistic” if you have a locomotive new and large enough for power reverse, then you might “hear” the johnson bar. Phoenix has a “Johnson Bar Effect” which is related to the FUNCTION of a johnson bar on a steam locomotive, that is, when moving at higher speeds, generally an engineman will “choke up” on the reverse gear, moving it closer to dead center. This means that more of the piston’s travel is powered by the expansion of the steam, and not by directly admitting steam to the cylinder … and therefore less steam per stroke is used. A heavy throttle setting with the gear thus “choked up” tends to produce a very staccato chuffing sound in the stack, and is popular with digital sound users on model trains, as it means that the “chuffs” are more individually distinguishable at higher speeds… whereas at lower speeds, “chuff chuff” can become “whuuuf whuuuuf” as with starting a heavy train and requiring less cutoff and more steam.

So demanding to hear the “johnson bar” may not be realistic depending on your prototype, and may not be the sound folks think it is.

Which brings us to lighting effects. On a real steam locomotive, assuming one powered by coal, you don’t generally see fire in the ash pan unless the locomotive is being steamed up and the bank is being broken out and raked, someone has done an occasionally necessary shaking of the grates, or something bad has happened. The fire is in the firebox, where it can heat the water. When the firebox doors are opened, the cab will light up brilliantly orange at night, requiring a good fireman to “one eye fire” so as not to ruin night vision. (Good for enginemen too… ) Flickering fire below the ash pan is generally not seen, although, at night you may see a warm glow, and occasionally some sparks from the grates being shaken or something falling through. Oil fired locomotives occasionally will flash back and out the bottom, particularly with massive changes in draft, as with wheel slip, etc. but the principle is the same; the fire belongs in the firebox. (and, since oilburners don’t need or have grates, the flashback is through opened dampers front and rear, and sometimes hard to see, depending on the construction of the locomotive. It’s a lot like watching your furnace at home. So… if you’re going to simulate a fire, the best effect I’ve seen is the Sierra, which brightens up when the "fireman’ is shovelling… and the doors would be open… and dims down when not; assuming the fireman left the doors on the first notch to keep things from getting too hot, you might actually see this. Marker lights are generally on, or off. The kerosene ones were lit when hung up, and the electric ones plugged in and generally left on, when on a train that required them.

I am not for a moment condemning realism in model trains. I particularly like the advances in digital sound that make the locomotive come to life. But I think it’s possible, in the name of putting something new on a model, to come up with things the model does that the prototype wouldn’t have … or to someday have someone watch a locomotive after learning on the model, and wondering why it wasn’t as realistic as the model was! After all, the headlight came on as if turned on by a switch, I didn’t hear a thing when the reverse gear was moved forward, the marker lights weren’t on at all (daytime!) and the fire looked bright white when the fellow opened the doors as the train left, not orange and red like it’s supposed to! And, while he dimmed his headlight when approaching the station, I couldn’t help but notice he didn’t turn both headlights on while making the runaround move in the yard. It’s just not like the model!

Here’s to realistic realism.

Matthew (OV)

Thanks Mathew for some more of your wonderful insights into the operation of steam locos. If I am not mistaken, several of your posts, here or elsewhere have been extremely helpful concerning the lights and sounds of a steam loco.

As you pointed out, the typical 20 second recorded startup sequence found on the mass produced sound cards like the Phoenix and Tsunami, do not do justice to the firing up of a loco.

However, the newer generation programmable sound decoders do allow for creating much longer and much more detailed startup sequences if desired. They do not simply play back a recording, but do use timers and programmable mixers to gradually bring up the sounds and add additional sounds at the appropriate time. One could, if desired make those cards could take hours to bring the loco to a ready state. However, since most railroads that do “OPERATION” on a time table use “FAST CLOCKS”, so that time period would most likely be compressed to 20 minutes or so. Realistically, for outdoor garden railroaders a partial startup sequence starting at power up and holding until the loco address is selected that is 5 minutes long is sufficient.

However, there are two parts to the startup sequence, the first part is from power on to loco address selected. The second part is from the time the loco address is selected until the user has turned on everything and gotten the loco into position.

By convention I try to keep function assignments uniform in my locos, so, F0 is headlights on off, F6 is for switching mode which also dims the lights, F8 is the turbo, If I turn on the DCC power, and the lights and turbo (F0 and (F8) were turned off the last time I used the loco, there would be no turbo sound and there would be no electric lights. Even if accidentally left on, those items are not activated until the loco’s address is selected. When the address is selected all that would be added is cab chatter coal shoveling, and perhaps the compressor would run, gradually getting louder as pressure builds up and then shutting off. I generally wait until the air compressor shuts off before I try to move the loco. I van turn on the turbo before moving or wait until i clear the ready track. If I turn on F8 to start the turbo, and the headlights are still off, you hear the sounds of the turbo but of course the lights do not brighten. On the other hand, if you turn on the lights first (F0), or they were left on the last time the loco was run, then the lights do not come on until the turbo (F6) is turned on. That is the only time you would see the headlight gradually brighten.

It is an interesting observation that the load placed on the turbo, caused by turning on the headlights would produce a noticeable drop in the turbo sound’s pitch. I would like to add that to the Kay if it really is at all noticeable, Can you point me to a spot in a recording somewhere that tells me how much a drop in the RPM pitch or volume I should include? Can you describe the sound a little better?

Oh, and yes, the Johnson movement I selected for the Kay is not much more than some clicks and squeaks. I assumed it was not a steam assisted reverser., and No you could not hear it if the loco is moving, only if it is moved when the loco is at a dead stop. I saw no reason to try to include it’s sounds whenever the loco is moving. The same is true for most other cab sounds.

One more question about the K27 specifically. How is the butterfly door operated? ( what sounds does it make?)

Bob,

Firebox doors: Not a K-27, but same principle. Short, but effective video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_GK-D9TlTc

Still working on the dynamo pitch shift. Basically, the headlight is a very high watt, 36 volt DC bulb and it loads the dynamo down. So, going from “off” to “on” loads the generator, and the pitch drops appreciably. I’m not sure why, but Dim doesn’t seem to load it as badly as Bright … even though you’d think the resistance would be about the same total… just a bulb vs bulb plus resistance.

I’ll see what I can dig up later tonight.

Matthew (OV)

…Markers… or “Marker lights” are NOT on the front of the locomotive…those are classification lights…

Mathew, think “resistance of the bulb” vs “resistance of the bulb PLUS more resistance”. The increased total resistance results in less current.

It is also possible I suppose that there were two different filaments in the bulb like a car headlight.

Fred. Thanks for keeping me straight, On the tender, there were often lights too. Maybe not on the Colorado K27’s but I have seen pictures on them on other locos and other railroads, Are those marker lights or classification lights?

They would be Marker lights, if the tender was the end of the Train.

You must remember that the word “Train” is used incorrectly in a lot of cases.

A “Train” could be a single loco, if it had orders, or as an extra was classified with “Classification lights” to indicate it’s status; as an extra (Not on the timetable) with white lights by night, or white flags by day. Green lights if running as the first of one or several sections.
It would then have “Marker lights” (Red) “Bringing up the rear” or in other words on the rear of the tender.
Few locos had permanent “Markers” on the tender, unless the loco was used on a regular basis in a bidirectional role. Some had brackets on the rear of the tender.

There are two unidentifed little pieces of metal molded onto the rear of my undecorated green boiler Kay tender that I think must be brackets. anyone else have them? Are they brackets for the marker lights?

Classification and Marker lights. The Pennsy and Norfolk & Western had a number of locomotives with marker lights mounted on tenders. In these cases the locomotives were usually assigned to pusher service. Other railroads also had some tenders with marker lights.

For some reason there were Pennsy locomotives with marker lights mounted on the front pilot beam. There are any number of pictures of Pennsy locomotives in Linn H. Westcott’s book Cyclopedia-Volume 1 Steam Locomotives that show marker lights on the front pilot.

As an example, page 141 of the Westcott book has pictures of a Pennsy Class K4 with the markers on the pilot. Why that is the case would be the question.

Going through the Westcott book you’d be surprised at the number of tenders shown with marker lights on their tenders.

I checked the tender of my green boilered K-27. There are two molded in features on the tender that might represent holders for marker lights although they don’t look like the brackets usually associated with marker light holders, either kerosene or electric.

JD

I’m not that familiar with commuter service during the steam era, but it is possible that a locomotive pushed its train and needed the markers on the pilot. I do know that there were some runs that locomotives ran tender first and thus may at times needed class lights on it. Any locomotive running on the main light would need markers on the tender.

New Haven RR. Book of Rules, 1956.

While I admit that the word “markers” specifically is used to designate the end of the train, the words “Classification Lamps” do not appear. My grounding in books of rules is NYNH&H based, which may have led to my use of the words interchangeably above… particularly where “electric marker lamps” of different colors are apparently supplied often enough on locomotives to make them worthy of mention in the rule book.

In any case, here are the rules pertaining to lights, marker and otherwise, on a locomotive. I’ve left out the ones that deal specifically with headlights, but could post those as well if needed.


  1. Yard engines, and detached road engines when in yards under conditions not requiring display of markers, will display the headlight to the front and rear by night. When not provided with a headlight at the rear, a white light must be displayed.

  2. The following signals will be displayed as markers to indicate the rear of the train:

On engines and cars equipped with fixed electric marker lamps, marker lamps lighted showing red to the rear except in manual block signal system territory when clear of the main track, marker lamps lighted showing yellow to the rear. When not equipped to display yellow, marker lamps will be extinguished and a white light displayed to the rear.

On engines and cars not equipped with fixed electric marker lamps, one marker lamp, lighted by night showing red to the rear, except in manual block signal system territory when clear of the main track, lighted marker lamp will be concealed and a white light displayed to the rear.

19a. A train not equipped to display the markers prescribed by Rule 19 will display a red flag by day and a red light by night to indicate the rear of the train, except in manual block signal system territory when clear of the main track a white light will be substituted for the red.

  1. Unless otherwise provided, all sections except the last will display two green lights in the places provided for that purpose on the front of the engine.

  2. Extra trains, consisting in whole or in part of passenger equipment with or without caboose, will display two white lights in the places provided for that purpose on the front of the engine.

The display of white signals on other extra trains will be omitted.

On portions of the railroad where no regular trains are authorized, the display of white signals on extra trains may be omitted.

21a. Only trains consisting in whole or in part of passenger equipment with or without caboose will be authorized to represent a schedule.


And to be perfectly thorough:

TRAINS. [from: definitions]

TRAIN. - An engine or more than one engine coupled, with or without cars, displaying markers.

EQUIPPED ENGINE OR TRAIN. - An engine or train equipped with cab signal apparatus including warning whistle and acknowledger in operative condition for the direction it is to move.

EXTRA TRAIN. - A train not authorized by a time-table schedule. It may be designated as -

EXTRA - For any extra train except work extra.

WORK EXTRA - For work extra.

REGULAR TRAIN. - A train authorized by a time-table schedule. Regular Trains are first class.

SECTION. - One of two or more trains running on the same schedule displaying signals or for which signals are displayed.

SUPERIOR TRAIN. - A train having precedence over another train.

TRAIN OF SUPERIOR RIGHT. - A train given precedence by train order.

TRAIN OF SUPERIOR CLASS. - A train given precedence by time-table.

TRAIN REGISTER. - A book or form which may be used at designated stations for registering signals displayed, time of arrival and departure of trains and such other information as may be prescribed.


I have a question here. Bachmann is going to come up with a kit to coreect this issue and the user is going to have to do this repair themselves?
LAO

I think you have the option of doing the 15 min change yoursself or sending the loco in for the change.

The third option is to run it as is. It seems run as good as any other Bachman loco I’ve gotten.

Bob,
I think they will run fine for awhile, but then the counterweights work loose, causing lockups, and potential damage to the axles. Dave G. suggests that they not be run much until the fix is made. Hence, I am holding off until the replacement parts are obtainable. Besides, it hasn’t stopped snowing here since Thanksgiving. I’ve no clue when my railroad will again reappear.