" Rooster " said:
Joe,
This is EXACTLY why I model by eye and not to scale!
I rest my case Joe …I hope you find the solution you are after…BTW I have scratchbuilt to 1:24 SCALE (structures) for ease of building but most I build is by eye as stated.
This has all been thought-provoking and very interesting, at least to me.
So Rooster,
You’re saying that even if equipment of the same scale is run together, it will look off?
Edit: I should have thought much harder before I posted this. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif)
Joe Loll said:
So Rooster,
You’re saying that even if equipment of the same scale is run together, it will look off?
Let me put it this way, Joe…
I built these, so I know they’re to scale. I still give it a visual double-take every now and then. What I need to do next is build a 40’ standard gauge box car in 1:20.3 and run it on narrow gauge trucks as did the EBT. That’ll really make for some head-scratching.
In all seriousness, one of the foundational elements of garden railroading in the US is the notion that the models all fit the same basic aesthetic proportions. That’s why Aristo and USA hit a market with 1:29 where 1:32 was viewed as “too small” compared to the stuff being sold by LGB, Delton, Bachmann, and Kalamazoo. It’s also why many look at the 1:20.3 stuff from Bachmann and AMS as “too big” comparatively. There’s that “sweet spot” that’s right in the middle which seems to attract the attention. When the operational aesthetic is that of everything being roughly the same overall size, models that are “to scale,” but decidedly not the same size (such as the example shown above) can look “off.”
The question you should probably look to answer for yourself is whether or not absolute scale fidelity to an established scale/gauge is paramount in your modeling. From what I know of you, I don’t think it is. I think you’re a lot like me in that you’ll build models to fit the context in which they run. Running on the Woodland Railway, that’s 1:24. I changed scales because the context changed. I don’t think any less of the models I’ve built for the Woodland Railway than the models I’ve built for the Tuscarora. Consistency within a given context is important, but there’s no reason one must be limited to only one context. Heck, I just bought some 7/8" kits because I want to built a short plantation train to run at the Colorado RR Museum. That stuff’s too big for my back yard railroad, but it won’t likely be running back there, either.
Later,
K
And just for fun at this point I’ll toss in this from a Dave Marconi post made in 2016,
Source, Shorpy,
Circa 1905. “Tramps fighting on R.R. train – Get down and hit the grit.” Bain News Service reproduction of a Brown Bros. print.
And then I’ll add that last decade of the 19th century & the first couple decades of the 20th century were a time of great growth in railroad equipment dimensions.
A couple foreground boxcars here also illustrate the concept, https://www.shorpy.com/node/21155
Ahh, here’s the picture I was looking for, http://www.lsc.cvsry.com/WoodBoxcar/BigNSmallBoxCarsJPG.JPG
Edit: I should have thought much harder before I posted this. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif)
Seems like I missed the entire point of the last 7 or 8 posts. My apologies, everyone.
After re-reading the thread, here is what I have come up with:
-
There is obviously variation in the size of prototype cars
-
Thus, cars of different sizes can be in the same scale
-
Cars of different scales could be run together as a train in one scale (although if you really like to nitpick, certain details such as grab irons might be out of scale)
-
if you are modeling an early steam era railroad, and you are not running cars of different sizes (assuming you’re trying to be prototypically accurate), then you are not doing it accurately.
As I think of my original intention/question, I still feel as though I am leaning toward 1:24. But I guess I could run certain cars of other scales that might not look out of place. Again, I would like to settle on a certain scale so I have scale fidelity and a focus on what equipment I have, so I don’t just go buying whatever I like and have a “stray dogs” collection. At least, that’s what I’d like to do. However, certain road names/models in other scales do attract me, and are tempting. But I think I might feel better if I had only one scale, so I don’t have to worry about whether one loco from one scale looks good bad or indifferent with a car from another scale. I guess I’m looking for coherence and consistency, because I think it will keep me grounded and not having a hodge podge of equipment that doesn’t make sense or look good together. At the very least I feel that my 1:20.3 doesn’t fit into the context of the railroads that I operate on, and is too large (it also takes up too much room in the back of our car). Though this doesn’t mean I couldn’t have a car or two from another scale that scales well in 1:24.
My original plan was to have a narrow gauge railroad with all 20.3 equipment (before I decided it was too large), and one 1:29 scale Western Maryland train. However, Upon deciding to switch to 1:24, there is the possibility to have both a narrow gauge railroad and a Western Maryland train in 1:24, which is much more appealing to me than having two separate and incompatible scales. And with 1:24, I could even have something from 1:29 scaled up to 1:24.
I think it helps if you pick an era. I decided to focus on the 1890s thru 1920s, thus my locos; the C-16 and a 4-4-0 are small and pull short trains. The wooden cars of the Aristocraft Classic (Delton) series play nice together.
My 1:29 stock car is huge and occupies a nice shelf …
One thing always tickled me funny bone; Many of the folks who point out the gauge discrepancy, willfully played with the fake On30, whilst I hand laid the correct On3. I figured I fought that battle there and this was my social gauge where others can bring their trains to run on my pike.
Chuck brought his 1:29 Mallet while Dirk ran a 1:24 Delton 4-4-0 and we all had fun.
Joe Loll said:
… I guess I could run certain cars of other scales that might not look out of place…
The key is to pick a scale, then ignore the number printed on the box each model comes in. Instead, measure each model with a ruler of your chosen scale. If it fits the realm of plausibility, go with it. If not, move on. Sometimes, the perfect model is as simple as building a new cab for a locomotive. The fun (for me, at least) is digging into railroad history to find out what constitutes “plausible.” There’s a lot of truth to the saying that “there’s a prototype for everything.” Railroads did some pretty funky things.
Later,
K
Joe Loll said:
Edit: I should have thought much harder before I posted this. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif)
Seems like I missed the entire point of the last 7 or 8 posts. My apologies, everyone.
After re-reading the thread, here is what I have come up with:
There is obviously variation in the size of prototype cars
Thus, cars of different sizes can be in the same scale
Cars of different scales could be run together as a train in one scale (although if you really like to nitpick, certain details such as grab irons might be out of scale)
if you are modeling an early steam era railroad, and you are not running cars of different sizes (assuming you’re trying to be prototypically accurate), then you are not doing it accurately.
As I think of my original intention/question, I still feel as though I am leaning toward 1:24. But I guess I could run certain cars of other scales that might not look out of place. Again, I would like to settle on a certain scale so I have scale fidelity and a focus on what equipment I have, so I don’t just go buying whatever I like and have a “stray dogs” collection. At least, that’s what I’d like to do. However, certain road names/models in other scales do attract me, and are tempting. But I think I might feel better if I had only one scale, so I don’t have to worry about whether one loco from one scale looks good bad or indifferent with a car from another scale. I guess I’m looking for coherence and consistency, because I think it will keep me grounded and not having a hodge podge of equipment that doesn’t make sense or look good together. At the very least I feel that my 1:20.3 doesn’t fit into the context of the railroads that I operate on, and is too large (it also takes up too much room in the back of our car). Though this doesn’t mean I couldn’t have a car or two from another scale that scales well in 1:24.
My original plan was to have a narrow gauge railroad with all 20.3 equipment (before I decided it was too large), and one 1:29 scale Western Maryland train. However, Upon deciding to switch to 1:24, there is the possibility to have both a narrow gauge railroad and a Western Maryland train in 1:24, which is much more appealing to me than having two separate and incompatible scales. And with 1:24, I could even have something from 1:29 scaled up to 1:24.
Yea, that was my original intent. Then I saw a Shay, my second favorite locomotive, in a hobby shop. Then the 1:24 compatible rule I had, started getting a bit shaky. Then, when I saw a Climax, my favorite locomotive, and the owner of the store offered me a discount on the Shay if I bought the Climax, and he had already put sound in the Climax, and… So much for the rule of stuff being 1:24 compatible…
Besides, I do have fun with my stray dogs collection. I just don’t run 2 majorly different scales together. If the logging engines are out, then only the logging engines are out. If the “mainline” stuff is out, then only the mainline stuff is out. Mainline being predominantly 1:29th scale. If the 1:32nd stuff is out, then its the only stuff on the railroad, and the same with the 1:24 and 1:24 compatible stuff. The rule breaker for this rule is the train of commemorative cars. They are a mix of all the scales I have except 1:20.3, but that is the only usual exception.
Joe Loll said:
… there is the possibility to have both a narrow gauge railroad and a Western Maryland train in 1:24, which is …
Western Maryland train in any scale is good! (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)
(mine are all HO, though)
Agreed!
Here in Maryland, it is the local hometown railroad, along with the B&O (personally, I prefer the Western Maryland). I’ve ridden the Western Maryland Scenic three times.
A friend of mine (who used to work for the WM), is coming out with Piko’s GE switcher in the fireball logo (in 1:24). This loco will be limited in production and available one time only. PM me if you are interested. He can’t offer it if there isn’t enough interest.
Kevin Strong said:
Joe Loll said:
… I guess I could run certain cars of other scales that might not look out of place…
The key is to pick a scale, then ignore the number printed on the box each model comes in. Instead, measure each model with a ruler of your chosen scale. If it fits the realm of plausibility, go with it. If not, move on. Sometimes, the perfect model is as simple as building a new cab for a locomotive. The fun (for me, at least) is digging into railroad history to find out what constitutes “plausible.” There’s a lot of truth to the saying that “there’s a prototype for everything.” Railroads did some pretty funky things.
Later,
K
Sorry Kevin but I have to disagree with you on the “pick a scale” comment…I know you are famous in the Large Scale community and you’re dad was a freaking ICON within the LS community! However picking a scale matters not in my honest opinion. My opinion is based on modern mainline roundy round trains in the yard on 332 brass rail spaced at 45mm. I recently did a static model using 1:20 (Bachmann cars) and the track “scale” was off by my eye so I hand laid track to 62.5mm I believe. Yes this SCALE is incorrect however it “Looks” correct…I’m surprised we haven’t gotten into hand laid track and battery power verse’s track power at this point but I’m sure it’s coming ?
Joe ,
I should have asked if you are planning to “Build” or “Buy”
It’s all good and this is a discussion not a science so I ORIGINALLY stated my feeble knowledge on the subject stating I model by eye .
ROOZ
Rooster,
I plan to buy at first, but kitbash and build as the need arises, and time and money allow. I think that there are and were more manufacturers that made RTR 1:24 scale products than in other scales (Lionel, Delton, Hartland, Aristo, Piko)
Joe Loll said:
Rooster,
I plan to buy at first, but kitbash and build as the need arises, and time and money allow. I think that there are and were more manufacturers that made RTR 1:24 scale products than in other scales (Lionel, Delton, Hartland, Aristo, Piko)
Joe,
Lionel is 1:32 but once again it matters not and once again good luck with your “true to scale” venture…I personally will be watching for pics as I love pics…Pictures speak in tongues as they say more then 1,000 words …However this is just my opinion .
I thought the Lionel 0-6-0 and accompanying gon and caboose were 1:24. I thought they were designed by the guy from Hartland and Delton? Not that it matters.
David Maynard said:
…
Yea, that was my original intent. Then I saw a Shay, my second favorite locomotive, in a hobby shop. Then the 1:24 compatible rule I had, started getting a bit shaky. …
You and me both, Maynard. My very first fall-in-love, before I bought anything, was a yellow USAT Alco PA-1 / PA-2 combination at the old Caboose Hobbies. I didn’t even know at the time what 1:29 meant really. Then I fell in love with the Shays at 1:20.3 because I love those gears.
Uh oh.
So now I run the PAs with the smallest rolling stock I have, and I live with the Shays (all four or five of 'em, geez!).
I really want to find the time someday to put together a PA consist with the 1:29 heavyweights I have, get them all painted up in my own livery. Some day.
Joe Loll said:
Agreed!
Here in Maryland, it is the local hometown railroad, along with the B&O (personally, I prefer the Western Maryland). I’ve ridden the Western Maryland Scenic three times.
A friend of mine (who used to work for the WM), is coming out with Piko’s GE switcher in the fireball logo (in 1:24). This loco will be limited in production and available one time only. PM me if you are interested. He can’t offer it if there isn’t enough interest.
I’m interested, however my income is Social Security Disability which comes in at 11 dollars a month below the poverty level set by H&HS, because it is based on my working income which was never all that much because my physical health has always been a bit if a mess and that on top of autism. With that settlement pay I also got a number of Bachmann HO WM locos to use on our brand new at the time model R club here in ouor little county seat farm burg of 8,000 or so souls. Chessie System is my favorite and I’d not done much WM before, so why not try some!
So, on account of severe income limitations I’m not buying much new stuff any more.
But, dang, that little Piko GE 25 tonner is a beauty …
Fireball logo would be as big as the hood!
Most all the G scale I have was bought off the back pay from the disability settlement at least a decade ago. Have gotten some Hartland things since then, either direct from HLW or via Mike and Renee at Reindeer Pass.
Even though the Bachmann is probably 1/22, as well as the Preiser people, I’m calling the things I build 1/24. It is a nice easy round number to work with in Imperial fractional scale. 1/25 would work well with metric decimal points.
The USAT woodside reefers are nominally 1:24. I measured them once, and found that they are perfect (almost) for a 36 ft woodside reefer in 1:29. If i hold my jaw just right, and squint real hard, i don’t notice the oversize ladders. It works for me.
Steve Featherkile said:
The USAT woodside reefers are nominally 1:24. I measured them once, and found that they are perfect (almost) for a 36 ft woodside reefer in 1:29. If i hold my jaw just right, and squint real hard, i don’t notice the oversize ladders. It works for me.
Yes, some of the parts MAY be slightly oversize, but then again people complain about some of the USAT detail parts on cars as too fragile, so pick your poison, or make your own detail parts. I am still firmly in the camp of it it looks ok to my eyes, I seriously doubt a casual visitor will notice id the walkway is not see through grate (Aristo) or a step or a ladder is to big for scale (some USAT) . as long as it looks like some car they have seem their eyes will not notice small things, like H&L couplers or truckmount. Enjoy what you have , use the 10ft rule and show off your hobby to the general public.