Large Scale Central

California Lawyers: how does a Canadian resident file small clai

General Discussion
#21
Norman Bourgault said:
Hi Guys:

… Who is dealer A and who is dealer B ? These two clowns have already abused me enough. I cannot reveal their identity as I don’t need some American style lawsuit for which I would have to fly down to California !


No you wouldn’t. First if you simply tell the truth you’re invulnerable, legal-wise. Second, from their point of view you’re small fry, not worth worrying about. Foreign at that… Third, telling your story puts pressure on the miscreant to make nice. Fourth, Spilling the names clears the names of all the good guys.

I hate to say it, but this is real life.
I think ya gotta right to complain, but that means either s–t or get off the pot.

#22
John Le Forestier said:
Norman Bourgault said:
Hi Guys:

… Who is dealer A and who is dealer B ? These two clowns have already abused me enough. I cannot reveal their identity as I don’t need some American style lawsuit for which I would have to fly down to California !


Fourth, Spilling the names clears the names of all the good guys.

I hate to say it, but this is real life.
I think ya gotta right to complain, but that means either s–t or get off the pot.


My point EXACTLY! Name 'em or STOP the rant.

Norman says “Cannot reveal their identity”. Is it cannot OR will not? The damage has already been done to good dealers! I don’t believe Norman ever said he tried to get a resolution to this matter, directly through the accused dealer. If he did try and received NO resolution to his satisfaction, then he has every right to “out” the dealer by NAME. This thread has become a “non-issue” in my opinion.

#23

Seems to me it’s an argument over a “different road name”
That’s what Stan Cederleaf and decals are for.
I never let a road name stop me if I can get a good deal on a train.
Just sayin’…
Some collectors want original and I can appreciate that as well.

#24

I dont think you can be sued or probably 3/4 of the people here would be locked up in lawsuits. This is a public forum and you have a right to post your experience in full, which means disclosing the name of the dealers.

I definately know that Accucraft has nothing to do with this. I wouldnt drag their name in on this. They have absolutely no control on a dealer’s customer service.

Heck, QSI would probably have me in jail for all the slander I have said about the Titan delays!!

#25

Its a free country if you are not happy with a dealer you have a right to say it on the forum. They have reviews for everything today that get published. Lets a do full review of places.
So Norm list your top three best dealers and your top 3 worst dealers. That should settle A and B dealers :slight_smile: Oh and you cant get sued for listing your least favorite dealers.

#26

I think with all the ranting that people missed the fact that his dealer picked up the loco for him at retail from another dealer not dealer cost from the other dealer. Both dealers wanted a markup. he even stated that the Dealer B wanted retail and that was approved by him. Seems to me that it had been discussed prior then he wasnt happy with paying the increase cost for switching and buying through 2 dealers. But I know if I picked up a engine for someone as a dealer there will be a markup as Im running a business not charity. Just my opnion.

Thoguh without naming the dealers its just another complaint that is meaningless as its not directed to anyone. It dioesnt give anyone a good or bad name as he is speaking in general toward hundreds of hobbyshops as we dont even know what he bought!

#27

Hi Guys:

Dealer A picked up the loco at wholesale cost from the mfg.
Dealer B demanded the dealer mark up just to permit dealer A to have access to the loco at the mfg. to mail the loco to me.
I had the option of demanding the credit back from dealer A and then mailing the credit amount to dealer B.
Dealer A WAS a friend and he explained that we would work out the amount of the handling fee later. A handling fee is not 350.00 !!!

Dealer A charged me the full dealer commission as I had already paid him the full retail amount months in advance.
Dealer B charged me the full dealer commission to do absolutely nothing, nada. Dealer A has previously helped out dealer B to sell him store inventory at a favourable wholesale price as dealer B was not able to meet the minmum order qty. This is how dealer B repaid the generosity of dealer A.

Jason to make the mathematics simple, I paid the dealer commission twice on one locomotive: 350.00 + 350.00 = 700.00 commission.

Dealer B charged me the dealer commission just to release his pre-order on a loco without actually selling me the locomotive. I am sure this is not legal, but whatever.
Dealer A should have been upfront with me and explained that he was still going to charge me the full dealer commission if he mailed me the loco. That way I would have had dealer A forward me a refund for me to forward the funds to dealer B for dealer B to EARN his dealer commission by actually going through the LABOUR and TIME INVESTMEMT of receiving the loco from the mfg and then shipping the loco to me.

Gary Armitstead:

"Norman says “Cannot reveal their identity”. Is it cannot OR will not? The damage has already been done to good dealers! I don’t believe Norman ever said he tried to get a resolution to this matter, directly through the accused dealer. "

Gary, I guess you are trying to bait me as of course I attempted to get a resolution of this matter. Dealer A will not reply to the email, dealer B reply was basically that he stuck it to me and tough luck and the mfg. did not reply to my email of complaint to the Company President.

As to “cannot reveal their identity” . Of course I “can” reveal their identity. Not my job. It is the responsibilty of the mfg. to ensure that their distributors, who are representing their product and their company, behave in a responsible and fair manner in conducting commerce. This is the case in all retail.

The mfg. is fully aware of the situation. If the mfg. choses to not correct the situation, fine. This mfg. can then keep their product in their warehouse as far as I am concerned.

Lionel Trains for one would not permit such behaviour as there are expectations, a business code of conduct, which their distributors are required to meet.

Dealer A and dealer B have missed out on my subsequent train purchases. I don’t wish to have any further contact with individuals like that.

Norman

#28

Hi Tim:

Thank you for the suggestion of Only Trains. Many folks speak highly of RLD Hobbies. So these are two replacements for the two dealers I had this bad experince with.

Norman

#29

“Gary, I guess you are trying to bait me as of course I attempted to get a resolution of this matter.”

Not trying to 'bait" anyone. But your most recent post above DOES explain a lot of things. Thank you. IMHO you probably should have done this right at the outset. Would have saved quite a bit of bloviating by posters in BOTH sites. You had a “tricky” deal going there and I can see why you are upset. I learned years ago you can’t trust anyone, even a good friend, in deals like this. Probably should have had a lawyer draw up an agreement before you started. Murphy’s Law…something always goes awry with these things. You are out the $350.00 and a very expensive lesson learned. I’m sorry to hear it happen. Give it some time and MAYBE this dealer will show some compassion. You CAN’T lose any more by standing back for a little while. IF it doesn’t get resolved to your satisfaction, then maybe realize it could have been worse! It’s not worth your health and well-being to have this situation “eat on you”. Sit back and relax. Enjoy what you do have and run some trains.:slight_smile:

#30

Hi Gary:

Thank you for your support. That is basically the advice which I rec’d on the other forum. Not worth the mental health damage! The only possibility is the mfg. may eventually come through and help me. Yes, I was wrong to trust dealer A. I definitely am too trusting an individual. You meet certain people in life who harm you and then you learn. Could have been worse. At least dealer A shipped me the loco!

Norman

#31

You have my sympathy too, Norman. I know too how it hurts to get stiffed, and I know it does help somewhat to know that others have heard your plaint and feel for you. That, I’m sure, is the general sentiment here.

I do, however, stand by my belief that more good than harm would come all 'round by naming names fearlessly, and that a lot of unpredictable harm often comes of tiptoeing around this necessity. A wise teacher (you may have heard of Him) once said, “The truth will make you free.”

I have found that it’s so. Speak the truth fearlessly; it is a source of the greatest power imaginable, sweeping aside all obstacles in its path. No one can stop you; no one can dispute the truth or dare defy the one who speaks it.

I pray that the choices you have made in this case will bring you peace at last.:slight_smile:

#32
Norman Bourgault said:
............

As to “cannot reveal their identity” . Of course I “can” reveal their identity. Not my job. It is the responsibilty of the mfg. to ensure that their distributors, who are representing their product and their company, behave in a responsible and fair manner in conducting commerce. This is the case in all retail.

The mfg. is fully aware of the situation. If the mfg. choses to not correct the situation, fine. This mfg. can then keep their product in their warehouse as far as I am concerned.

…


BUT to save more people from going through a similar ordeal one names the parties involved. No, it is not your “job”, but it is certainly your money. If you feel that strongly about matters to inquire about pursuing the small claims route - which will cost you even more money and grieve - you name the parties, dealers and mfg. You obviously have the paper trail to document this, the “court of public opinion” will take care of the rest!

As always strictly my opinion!

PS
@ JLF

Yep, that’s what my mother used to say, the truth can’t hurt you. But it is at times very inconvenient and people get mighty upset when they are caught out with their hanky-panky, BS or outright lies.
Voluntary chill, PC and other such BS won’t fix things!
And to those who opine that getting the facts out there “will hurt the hobby” I say BS, what hurts the hobby is certain people getting away with dubious practices of various kinds. Yep, it isn’t just the money matters, misleading advertising is a close second and has been for a long time.

#33

Hi John, Hans-Joerg and others:

What angers me the most is the complete lack of response from the train mfg. as to not properly addressing their dealer network once a consumer complaint of abuse has been sent to the company president.

This retail behaviour definitely would not be tolerated in Canada.

These two retailers would get a visit from a man riding a black quarter horse in scarlet uniform and a stetson hat. OK, slight exaggeration as they would be paid a visit using their patrol car in standard dress.

As such, I guess I owe it to my fellow Canadians to help protect them from these two dealers.

The mfg is Accucraft.

The Company President is Bing , who knows ALL the details. I have not received a return phone call nor a return email. Nada. Nice to be a valued Accucraft customer. Ya, right!

So, for anyone who may worry of suffering the same fate as I have on their next Accucraft purchase:

contact either Bing or Cliff and ask THEM who these two dealers were. This is the Accucraft dealer network and the behaviour of their dealers is their legal responsability.

Accucraft contact info:

http://www.accucraft.com/

[email protected]

510 324 - 3399

Good luck,

Norman

#34

Now that names are on the table, I would caution people to stick to facts here, please. I’ve had nothing but good dealings with Accucraft, myself, in buying from their eStore, or drop-shipped when purchased from Robby at RLD. I don’t know who these two dealers are, though I have some ideas, but I don’t want this to turn into a dog pile.

Thanks

#35

Hi Bob McCown:

This is exactly why I did not mention the names of the two dealers. It is the responsibility of Accucraft to handle these two lads and to reveal their identities if Accucraft sees fit to do so. Not my legal responsiblilty.

Years ago I spoke with the now deceast Charlie of Accucraft. Super guy. I wanted a Sunflower smoke stack. Charlie explained that he did not have any stacks in California but that he was flying over to the China factory and that he could bring me some in his briefcase on the return flight. How many company president’s would do that? Charlie later emailed me from the China factory and told me that there were three stacks over at the China factory and he asked how many would I like? I asked could I buy all three? Charlie’s reply was sure!

Charlie and I had also previously spoken for well over an hour as to the design process of the locos and his personal history. Super nice guy.

Cliff has also been extremely helpful to me in all my parts purchases and to help with any problems that I had.

So these two dealers have now driven a wedge between myself and Accucraft. No reply from Bing which really pisses me off. Bing could at least have return emailed me and explained that he was sorry as to what had happened to me but there was nothing that he could do. All I got was stone silence.

So I will leave at that.

Norman

#36

Thanks Norman. That clears the air a great deal. Not.

#37

Don’t let that stop you if you like Accucraft.
Chose another dealer, or buy direct from their E Store.

#38

Again, I repeat myself. Accucraft did their part. The complicated deal you talked about is between the dealers. I had already mentioned Accucraft has no way to police a dealer when it comes to dealer commission. Accucraft sold the product to the dealer, it is the dealer who then turned around and took you for your money. I still can’t figure out why you are blaming Accucraft. I would understand if it was something that pertained to the quality of the product, but Accucraft has very limited authority over it’s dealers. In this instance, they have none.

Your blaming Accucraft for the dealer overcharging you is like blaming the rancher for you being charged too much for the steak at the restaurant you ate it.

I know your wondering about getting hit with a slander lawsuit, but I’m sorry to say, your small potatoes in their eyes. In fact you cant be sued, the only way any of the dealers or Accucraft could come after you is if you actually started a paid slander campaign. Your opinion on a website of a certain individual, company or whatever is protected by our free speach laws. Even though you are a Canadian citizen you are still protected. Again, I also stated that if this werent true, a majority of the people on this site and others would have been hit with slander lawsuits. The fact is they (meaning the Manuf., dealers and such) can not sue a person for telling of their experience.

Finally, you came here wanting advice on what to do. This is mine.

Persuing a dealer(s) in a small claims court is a lot of work. Someone mentioned the process (I think it was Bob) and that is accurate. Considering your distance to travel, it isnt worth it. As others have said your only avenue is to describe your experience here, in detail including names of the people and businesses you delt with. You have that leverage because large scale hobbists are a small group, a dealer does not want to have a bad rep because he could loose a large majority of his clientele. That is my advice.

#39

I’m with you Jake, but it’s like flogging a dead horse. I’ve given up on this BS.

#40
John Le Forestier said:
I'm with you Jake, but it's like flogging a dead horse. I've given up on this BS.
I can see why ;)

Dealer B did nothing wrong. He had a product he knew he could sell, and refused to discount it to dealer A.
Why wholesale a popular product when you can sell it for retail ?
You are taking dealer A’s word that he has “helped out” dealer B in the past. Regardless, dealer A took the full retail deal.

The only one you may have a beef with is dealer A.
However, you went along with the purchase. You could have backed out, or returned the locomotive.
Instead, you purchased the locomotive and now want to cry about the deal you made and complain because Accucraft is not bailing you out of your poor deal.

If you want something bad enough that you will pay $350 extra for it, you shouldn’t complain about it afterward.
Ralph