Large Scale Central

Barry's Big Trains Replacement ?

Hi Bob,

" the original TOC (The Ole Curmudgeon), the venerable David Goodson. " , what exactly was / is David Goodson’s relationship with Bachmann ?

Who is David Goodson ?

Is David Goodson the Beta Tester for Bachmann Locomotives prior to release for Sales to the Public ?

Hi Joe,

Yes I understand that Kadar Manufactures the locomotives in China.

However, Lee Riley did inform me that he was required to Personally Attend Kadar Product Development Meetings in China.

One Kadar Staff Member was so embarrassed when a Product Issue Came Up that he simple closed his book, bowed and walked out of the meeting. A Very Different Culture !

Does anyone know of a replacement to Barry’s Big Trains ?

Norman

Joe Zullo said: . . Mr. Riley must have meant that “plastic” gears were “better” because it met their price point at the time! (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

I think ‘engineering plastic’ gears might be better than brass. Metal wears out, as I can attest from my slot-car days, especially if not properly lubricated. Delrin gears can operate without significant wear for more years?

https://www.machinedesign.com/news/plastic-gears-outlast-metal

Joe, you bring up a point that is only partially true. The truth is Bachmann does not manufacture anything. Nor did Aristo Craft, USA Trains, or the majority of the other Brands we buy. The truth of the matter is that Kader in China owns most of the injection molding dies that are the hobby we enjoy. (I will qualify that I recently heard that USA Trains bought their dies back from the Chinese but have not read anything to validate the rumor.) Kader is a huge Chinese manufacturer and I am sure like our American mega corporations, they own many other companies. No doubt one of those companies is a gear manufacturer. Kader also owns Bachmann Industries, therefore Mr. Riley would have told the public what he was instructed by his superiors to say, regardless of the reality, and from Kader’s perspective plastic would have been ‘better’ because it would have increased their bottom line. As far as plastics go, there are plastics that could have been used that would have lasted far longer than the specific plastic that Bachmann used. Why did/do the NWSL gears last and the Bachmann didn’t? MATERIAL. NWSL gears I believe were manufactured out of Delrin, a very robust plastic.

There are many nuances of the hobby that we don’t see why it was done that way, mostly because we don’t have all the information that is used to come to the conclusion that make s the products we buy. We can always assume that the decision will be economically driven, and not your economy or mine but the company’s. I hear the complaint that our toys are getting too expensive. Consider that WE are part of that equation. By purchasing so much imported product, we have brought the Chinese standard of living up to where they are getting better pay, and that evolves into higher prices for us. I have more to say on this topic but will respect Bob’s request to keep politics and religion out of his living room.

Norman Bourgault said:

" the original TOC (The Ole Curmudgeon), the venerable David Goodson. " , what exactly was / is David Goodson’s relationship with Bachmann ?

Who is David Goodson ?

Is David Goodson the Beta Tester for Bachmann Locomotives prior to release for Sales to the Public

Norman, TOC visits, reads and occasionally responds to posts here on LSC. I will leave the answer to your query to him.

I have alerted TOC and we will see what he shares… we talk quite a bit, but he normally comes on the forum only when requested/alerted… (wise man)

Greg

Greg Elmassian said:

I have alerted TOC and we will see what he shares… we talk quite a bit, but he normally comes on the forum only when requested/alerted… (wise man)

Greg

I am shivering in my skin awaiting …just like Wiggles concert!

This post has been edited by Rooster: Wondering if Toc was such a wise man why he would only comes to LSC when requested/alerted and why others that are in that upper high class level do not follow his lead?

Bob Cope said:

Joe, you bring up a point that is only partially true. The truth is Bachmann does not manufacture anything. Nor did Aristo Craft, USA Trains, or the majority of the other Brands we buy. The truth of the matter is that Kader in China owns most of the injection molding dies that are the hobby we enjoy. (I will qualify that I recently heard that USA Trains bought their dies back from the Chinese but have not read anything to validate the rumor.) Kader is a huge Chinese manufacturer and I am sure like our American mega corporations, they own many other companies. No doubt one of those companies is a gear manufacturer. Kader also owns Bachmann Industries, therefore Mr. Riley would have told the public what he was instructed by his superiors to say, regardless of the reality, and from Kader’s perspective plastic would have been ‘better’ because it would have increased their bottom line. As far as plastics go, there are plastics that could have been used that would have lasted far longer than the specific plastic that Bachmann used. Why did/do the NWSL gears last and the Bachmann didn’t? MATERIAL. NWSL gears I believe were manufactured out of Delrin, a very robust plastic.

There are many nuances of the hobby that we don’t see why it was done that way, mostly because we don’t have all the information that is used to come to the conclusion that make s the products we buy. We can always assume that the decision will be economically driven, and not your economy or mine but the company’s. I hear the complaint that our toys are getting too expensive. Consider that WE are part of that equation. By purchasing so much imported product, we have brought the Chinese standard of living up to where they are getting better pay, and that evolves into higher prices for us. I have more to say on this topic but will respect Bob’s request to keep politics and religion out of his living room.

Shawn Conahey shared a post to the group: G Scale Trains.
4 hrs ·

USA Trains News direct from the 2019 ECLSTS Show.

I had my usual chat with Charlie Ro Sr owner of USA Trains today during the 2019 ECLSTS Show. I was able to confirm and get some information about future products.

#1 I was able to confirm that USA Trains will indeed make another run of the F3 AB locomotive to go with the aluminum passenger cars.

#2 I was also able to confirm that USA Trains will be introducing a F7 at the same time F3 goes back into production.

#3 USA Trains is working on 2 new diesels besides the F7 but these projects are way off into the future. I can’t say what they are at this time.

#4 USA Trains is also working on 2 new freight cars. These projects are also way off into the future. Once again I can’t say what they are.

#5 Charlie had asked me to sorta be a liaison between him and the customers by sending him feedback from the comments on the USAT G Scale Group. I accepted.

#6 I saved the best news for last. After a 4 year battle USA Trains was able to get all of their molds back from Kader/Bachman. Look for USA Trains to get back in full production swing in the near future.

Bob

You don’t consider this validation?

Tom

Tom Stephens said:

Bob

You don’t consider this validation?

Tom

Tom,

No disrespect but I personally do not .

Edit for …hearsay

Tom, I consider that to be good news. I consider that to be news from a reliable source, however I would like to see some announcement from USA Trains. It would go a long way to build confidence in consumers. Thank you for the information.

Ditto, Shawn Conahey is definitely really into USAT, and I believe what he said, that this is what Ro told him. But actions do speak louder than words, would like to see some more locos or cars from the molds.

I’m optimistic.

Greg

Lots of questions.

After a threatened lawsuit, Botchman realized not only was I correct, but that I had underestimated the extent of the particular problem.

The agreement was I get one of the first of everything to evaluate, develop field fixes for, and possibly write reviews. I then placed units in long-term use, continuing evaluation and necessary fixes.

I knew quite well how the relationship with Kader worked, no matter what one person in particular spouted on various forums.

My buddy Howard Lee told me of the regrind issues and how they came about. Told me of the air tool issues, how the screws were way too tight, even though the written specs called for specific settings…and how he would start at one end of the line, set the tools, get to the end and come back…and they had all been reset by the workers.

How he though the 2-8-0 loose screws issue was payback.

I still have the e-mail from Clambake…where a publisher wanted to know if Botchman paid me…another attempt at discrediting.

You noticed there aren’t a lot of specific identifiers of loco here. That is on purpose. You’ve never lived until some nincompoop decides he (or she) knows for gal danged certain they have 42 for the answer…and modify postings to e-mail groups and send them off in an attempt to get me sued.

Tired of the BS.

Or one of the upper echelon at Botchman who tells you on the phone “What we design here and send off to China, we often do not recognize what they send back”.

Thought I understood “inscrutable” but someone promises the moon, all agreements are out the window.

After my first go-round with those folks, I started saving every piece I had to replace. Boxes and boxes, bags and bags of stuff. Insurance.

I could write a book.

Bottom line, we had an agreement, end result to be better products, and we were getting there. I never got paid by Botchman. I did endure narrow-minded barbs concerning my retention of review products, and no amount of explanation ever broke through that it was the AGREEMENT and long-term testing.

Do you remember parts issues? A long-since departed upper echelon told me a meeting with the Ting Dynasty where he brought that up, ended up with screaming (his words) and “we are NOT in the parts business. We make them cheap enough so when they break you buy another”.

Yeah, I know how it works. All too well. And I try to forget. Since someone got me thrown out, I can say I have purchased no new Botchman product, but that would be narrow. I have purchased NO LS trains as new.

Gah!

I recently - within the past two years - had dealings with both Dave Goodson and Barry, and am well satisfied with both.

I must have been among Barry’s last customers.

spooky…

This is great news from Shawn Conahey (thanks for re-posting, Tom). This information from Shawn through Charlie Ro has been broadcast before, but an updated confirmation from the horse’s mouth would be appreciated and be a great reason to be thankful.

Michael Kirrene said:

This is great news from Shawn Conahey (thanks for re-posting, Tom). This information from Shawn through Charlie Ro has been broadcast before, but an updated confirmation from the horse’s mouth would be appreciated and be a great reason to be thankful.

I couldn’t stand it anymore. I finally decided to ask the horse myself if no one else would.

Here is my email and USAT’s reply:

We have all of our molds. We are in the process of making the FEF northern and heavyweight passenger cars. We will them make some of the items we made in the past. We have a lot of products and cannot stock all of them at all times

USA Trains

662 Cross St

Malden, MA 02148

781-322-6084

From: Tom Stephens
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2019 9:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Molds

Gentlemen

There has been considerable chit-chat about the status of USA Trains molds.

The following statement was made:

After a 4 year battle USA Trains was able to get all of their molds back from Kader/Bachman.

This statement was made by someone claiming that Charles Ro said this at the 2019 ECLSTS show.

Could you either agree or disagree with this statement? What would some of your manufacturing plans be in the future?

I would hope that you could put the gossip about your molds to bed and provide some concrete information.

There have been a lot of negative comments being made and I hope you can settle this issue once and for all.

You have great products and this could result in more great products for the garden railroader if it is true.

Just an interested garden railroader.

Tom Stephens

I know it isn’t much, but it is from the horse’s mouth.

Tom

I haven’t seen it mentioned here (maybe I missed it) but NWSL has been purchased and will continue business as usual. One of the employees bought the business. While most of their products are suited more for the smaller scales, they do have some large scale offerings.

With regard to Barry’s drives, he told me he used gears out of Stock Drive Products’ catalog. Nothing special about them at all if anyone wanted to have a go at engineering a similar product. With today’s CAD technology, you could easily design a custom frame assembly or 3D print a gearbox, fitting the gears from SDP to suit your needs. Hartland sells their drivers and axles. Add a good motor and you’re off to the races.

The practical reality is that Bachmann rose above the need to have their locos re-powered. I don’t know that I see the need for a revival of the product line. The 5th-generation Bachmann 4-6-0 frame is available for $45 on Bachmann’s web site. Barry’s outside-frame 2-8-0 gearbox was designed to replace the once-fatal flaw of the broken axle gear. Bachmann’s fixed that with a brass gear/axle for $12 or so. How many of us here scratchbuild steam locos to where a business designing and building custom chassis for modelers would be commercially viable? Those of us who do are likely savvy enough to be able to design our own frames and gearing or appropriate existing motors and gearboxes for our own purposes.

Later,

K

Yes, it (NWSL) has been mentioned on all major forums for a number of days.

As mentioned by others already, a big contribution was the custom extrusion for the frame, which could not be 3d printed and kept small enough if printed “strong enough” (ha ha no pun intended), likewise I am very skeptical that 3d printed gears have sufficient density to be as strong as the solid nylon ones that come stock, or the even stronger and denser delrin ones from NWSL. (I know you did not indicate printing the gears)

Printing a gearbox would still need steel shafts, but doable, I agree. Frame, not likely for steamers.

Greg

With respect to NWSL, I was referring specifically to within this thread where I hadn’t seen it mentioned. Sorry not to be more specific.

I wasn’t thinking about 3D printing the loco frame (though one could design a motor block kind of arrangement fairly easily for smaller locos). CNC for the frames. You can go simple as Barry’s frames were, or you could go for fully sprung/equalized axles. Use the same off-the-shelf motors and gears Barry used. No reason to re-invent that part of the wheel.

Later,

K

Kevin you are right about the gears, when I got my drive from Berry I needed a new axle gear, ordered from stock drive had to enlarge the hole and that part was good.

Richard

Yes, designing a working chassis for a steam locomotive is not something that many of us can easily do. And then to design it to fit an existing product…

Since Bachmann has come out with a decent chassis that can be fitted to existing product, you8 are probably right that the market for a new chassis for that line of locomotives has dwindled.

Now if someone made a good chassis for the Aristo Pacific, Mikado, Consolidation, and such, they might have a large enough market to justly the tooling and custom work to make those drives.