More than 30 years ago I was a cartage agent for numerous Air Freight Forwarders. I would pick up freight at the airport and deliver for these out of town agents.
Military shipments always came in “Deliver on arrival”. One day I picked up a box of wool blankets, hot shot delivery from DFW to the FT. Hood hospital. $240 delivery charge. It was August.
One Monday I picked up a steel rod, hot shot delivery to Red River Army Depot in Texarkana, $180. Tuesday, I picked up another steel rod at DFW going to Texarkana. The same, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. When I dropped the fifth rod off Friday, the other four rods were still sitting on the dock at Texarkana.
This is just an example of how people “game” the system. Not quite theft, but not “right” either. And this is how everything is done in Government.
Everyone along the way has his hand in the till, driving up the cost.
What does this have to do with Unions or the movie? Probably not a thing. But I wanted to tell the story. And this was 30 years ago. Things have gotten much worse.
Ralph
Kevin Strong said:
This being a railroad forum, if you're looking for reading material, I suggest you go and read up on the practices that built the railroads across this nation. "Deplorable" doesn't begin to describe it. Chinese/Irish labor? They weren't some ultra-willing labor pool looking for adventure. Society treated them as second-class citizens. Discrimination was such that they couldn't get jobs anywhere else, so they took the dangerous jobs building the railroads where they were considered expendable by the railroad management. Private sector abuse of government resources? Head out to Promentory Point some time. The CP and UP's grades passed each other and ran parallel for a good number of miles because each was trying to milk the government for as much money as possible instead of simply joining the two lines like they were supposed to. The government had to intervene and force them to join in the middle.Safety? Read the newspaper accounts of the accidents that occurred in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Think there’s a railroader today that wants to go back to walking atop icy box cars with a brake club in one hand? And if he could hold the brake club, it meant he was fairly new on the job and hadn’t lost fingers to the link-and-pin couplers. What changed those practices? “We the people.” It wasn’t government, it wasn’t the railroads. It was the workers. They organized, pressured, and invented. They drove the innovations that led to safer equipment. They used labor unions as a means to get their needs met. Government and railroads reacted to the efforts of the workers. (Actually, the government reacted. The railroads went kicking and screaming because it was going to cost them $$ to implement.)
Are there (were there) abuses in government and labor? Absolutely. No one’s above that fray; it’s the nature of the beast. But just as a politician’s primary goal is to get re-elected, a company’s primary goal is to make money. How it does that–and at what cost to others–has long been demonstrated as being immaterial to their primary goal. The ends justify the means, even if it ultimately means cutting off their nose despite their face.
If we’re going to rally around something, we shouldn’t be “anti-government,” or “anti-free market.” We need to be “pro-us.” We need to protest against companies offshoring our jobs and factories just as loudly as we protest against government spending. We need to protest the “fat cats” who use loopholes to avoid paying their fair share as loudly as we protest the “welfare queens” who exploit the system to their benefit. We are “we the people.” We need to look out for our best interests with the same fervor the corporations and politicians look after their own. And we need to wake up and realize “our best interests” are not ideological. “Our best interests” are the exact same best interests as what drives corporations and politicians–our bottom line and keeping our jobs. When we’re standing in the bread line, what difference does ideology make?
Later,
K
bold = the truth
It is all about us. We must begin to look over the ‘small’ issues that keep us bickering and distracted (prime examples listed in above post). If ‘we the people’ could only begin to realize how far we have slid down this slope, and understand what the ramifications are for ‘hitting bottom’.
“We” are minuscule ants in their eyes, but “We” are the majority, albeit a silent one. I’m reminded of A Bugs Life-the film.
~ You let one ant stand up to us, and they all might stand up! Those “puny little ants” outnumber us a hundred to one. And if we ever let them figure that out… THERE GOES OUR WAY OF LIFE! It’s not about food. It’s about keeping those ants in line.~
and further, I’d like to Thank everyone for the civility shown in this thread. While I had NO intention of the discussion going this way, it has been refreshing to see our group of friends discuss what has become quite a hot-topic. I also appreciate Bob allowing the chat to continue.
C. Nelson said:I don't mind lively discussion, but when it gets into name calling, its over. :)
and further, I'd like to Thank everyone for the civility shown in this thread. While I had NO intention of the discussion going this way, it has been refreshing to see our group of friends discuss what has become quite a hot-topic. I also appreciate Bob allowing the chat to continue.
While I have not read the book, YET, I can’t see anybody advocating going back to “HOW” things were done at the turn of the century or even 50 years ago. Education, public awareness, technology has done much to change the “How” . What has changed over the years is the “WHY” things are done. A “free market” depends on the intelligence of the consumer to decide “WHY” one product advances over another, why one business fails and another succeeds. It doesn’t and shouldn’t depend on one central, name-less, face-less bureaucracy to decide for the consumer what is best for them and what isn’t, who the winners and losers should be. As for the novel being an exaggeration, every one I’ve ever read, from Tom Clancy to Ernest Hemingway, is exaggerated to keep the reader’s interest up. It’s why it’s called “fiction”.
Everyone at one time or another has been a “victim” of some wrong doing, be it real or imagined. What happens after that depends on the character of the individual. Do you shake it off and learn from it, or do you revel in it and decide someone else should make decisions for you? Like I said, I haven’t read the book, but that seems to me the gist of the premise, from what I’ve heard about it. I could be wrong…
KS - The laborers that built the railroads were not chained to the jobs. They chose to work on the railroads. Business closing in the US and going off-shore is mostly due to high tax, wages and regulation in the USA. Raising wages for workers only lowers the value of the dollar. Union shops pass on the increase to the consumer, the consumer is pinched and demands their wages increase as well, then union members complain the cost of goods has gone up and their non-union neighbor is making the same as they and the downward spiral of the value of the dollar continues. The annual salary of a worker today buys about the same as it did in 1960.
Mik- If I am a farmer and my son will inherit the farm, why do I need to send him to school and not permit him to work the farm and be homeschooled about finance and reading, etc?
WS - If associations, guilds and unions did as you suggest that would be fine. What AARP, AFL/CIO et al do is confiscate dues from their member and funnel it into the politicians THEY decide they want to buy, usually against the choice of the political members. Public service unions should not be permitted since the group that looses from their winning negotiating is the taxpayers who are not represented at the bargaining table. I know that $12/hr. for a family of 6 was difficult, but not impossible to accomplish.
David Hill said:Yea, not so much.
The annual salary of a worker today buys about the same as it did in 1960.
Take a look at these pix again. This IS the kind of world Ayn Rand wanted for the worker ants. Those who ‘produce nothing’, but are just expendable, quickly replaceable cogs in the machine of the great ones.
(http://completeall.com/pictures/america100/america-100years-ago4.jpg)
(http://completeall.com/pictures/america100/america-100years-ago5.jpg)
(http://completeall.com/pictures/america100/america-100years-ago19.jpg)
(http://completeall.com/pictures/america100/america-100years-ago37.jpg)
(http://completeall.com/pictures/america100/america-100years-ago20.jpg)
Not endorsing a return to the excesses of the early part of the 20th century? Not overtly saying it, maybe. But if you believe in checks and balances to keep government from excess, why would you believe that without checks on industry (OSHA, EPA, Dept of Labor, Dept of Agriculture, even unions) there won’t be a return to exactly that? You believe that power and money corrupts politicians, but it somehow doesn’t corrupt business people? Do you remember the corporate raiders of the '80s? The guys who would buy up a long established SOLVENT company, wring it dry, then move on to the next?.. The ones that left a trail of empty buildings and thousands of people who WORKED there with NOTHING? … They made a lot of money doing that. They owed nothing to the communities or country in which they lived. They owed nothing to those whose lives they ruined in their quest for more profits for themselves. Those fellows were disciples of Ayn Rand, every one. Can government go too far? Yes. Can unions go to far? Yes. But you choose to believe capitalists and industrialists somehow CAN’T and WON’T? Look at those pictures above again. They DID before. That’s WHY the unions and “government interference” are THERE. The Tea Party and ultra-conservative folks have been sold an emotional bill of goods that SOUNDS wonderful, but doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. “If the American people ever allow the banks to control issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied.” -Thomas Jefferson “Fascism will come wrapped in a flag and carrying a Bible.” ~ Sinclair Lewis 1935 And, for the record, I never left the Republican Party. They left me with their hard sharp lurch to the ultra far right. The Dems don’t much want me either. (except when it comes time to cast a vote) So I consider myself a free thinker, and allowed to bash the arrogance, stupidity and excesses of BOTH parties.
Want to save more than a few hundred billion dollars… Pull back from defending the rest of the world Let the Germans, French, English, Koreans, Japanese etc defend themselves. Now don’t go reading I’m anti military…I’m not. I gave this country the best eight years of my life 1970 to 78 in the US Army and wasn’t drafted. But jeeze-louize the money we could not spend defending our “interest” around the globe…meaning big business. If gas is $10/gallon it wouldn’t bother me and I’m a guy who’s in the station twice a week for diesel for the 3 trucks and gas for the two smaller vehicles we use for support.
Quote:"Chose" is an interesting way to put it. They couldn't get jobs anywhere else--no one else would hire them because they were social outcasts. The railroads knew this and took full advantage. The same thing still occurs today. There's always a class of worker that lacks the skills or social status to get a good-paying job, so they're forced to work wherever they can find it. Spend a day with migrant workers (even legal ones!) "Choice?" What choice? work wherever you can find it or starve.
... KS - The laborers that built the railroads were not chained to the jobs. They chose to work on the railroads.
Quote:Wrong. Business closing in the US is the result of cheap labor in 3rd world countries. Read Jack Welch's biography. He was the president of GE, and is widely regarded as the father of outsourcing. His decision to start moving jobs to India had nothing to do with taxes and regulation. It had to do with the fact that he could pay a person in India $1 per day to produce something that he was paying a US worker $7/hour to do. In fact, he's rather proud of that, and points to it as one of his crowning achievements in business. What do you think's going to happen as wages begin to rise in China (as they're beginning to do)? Businesses will simply pull up their tents and move to the next "cheap labor pool" down the road. Taxes? Read today's headlines about GE paying virtually no taxes. They're a bazillion-dollar corporation and they pay virtually no taxes. Where there's tax laws, there are loopholes and incentive, all in the name of "economic growth" to the region being "served" by the business. Regulation? Half of this thread discusses why regulation of both government [i]and[/i] private sector is necessary for the common good. Of course businesses are going to migrate to where there's no regulation. What student would choose a classroom led by a disciplinarian as opposed to a classroom where the teacher sticks her head in the room once a week and says "y'all be good." Without oversight, there's abuse. Plain and simple. Look at what happens here when Bob goes on vacation!
... Business closing in the US and going off-shore is mostly due to high tax, wages and regulation in the USA.
Quote:Well, Bob pretty much debunked the last part of that statement. As for rising wages being the cause of lowering the value of the dollar, that's much more of a "chicken or egg" argument. Just as many economists argue that the fiduciary responsibility of public corporations to continually increase profits to shareholders drives up the costs of goods and services, and wages follow (typically at a lagging rate) as workers struggle to keep up with the rising cost of living. The reality is that both are very closely linked, but neither is singularly a causal factor.
... Raising wages for workers only lowers the value of the dollar. Union shops pass on the increase to the consumer, the consumer is pinched and demands their wages increase as well, then union members complain the cost of goods has gone up and their non-union neighbor is making the same as they and the downward spiral of the value of the dollar continues. The annual salary of a worker today buys about the same as it did in 1960.
Quote:Home schooling is legal in all states. You don't even need to be a farmer. But you do have a responsibility as a parent to make sure your child is educated, and each state has minimal (arguably [i]very[/i]minimal) guidelines for home-schooled students to meet. (They do vary by state.) What parent wouldn't give his/her children every possible tool for success that they can, so their children can be successful in whatever they want to do?
... Mik- If I am a farmer and my son will inherit the farm, why do I need to send him to school and not permit him to work the farm and be homeschooled about finance and reading, etc?
Funny you should mention farming, since the family farm is pretty much obsolete–absorbed by large corporate farms. Most family farmers can’t even exist without government subsidies. Your kid very likely won’t have a farm to inherent. And if he’s literate only enough to know how to milk a cow, even if there is a farm left for him to inherit, he won’t have the smarts to run it and keep from being taken advantage of.
Quote:$12/hour for a family of six is an annual income of just under $25k. The poverty line for a family of 6 is just under $30K. If you're comfortable living below the poverty line, good on you. I--and most folks in any country--aspire to much, much more, and educate ourselves to make that possible. Why would I, after working to educate myself and put myself in a position to where I make a comfortable living, embrace policies which have historically undermined everything I've worked for? The politicians and fat cat corporations certainly aren't supporting policies that undermine [i]their[/i] position. They're spending big bucks to dupe you into undermining yours, though.
... I know that $12/hr. for a family of 6 was difficult, but not impossible to accomplish.
Later,
K
Kevin Strong said:http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/ is a good link showing what your $12/hour is worth across the country.
$12/hour for a family of six is an annual income of just under $25k. The poverty line for a family of 6 is just under $30K. If you're comfortable living below the poverty line, good on you. I--and most folks in any country--aspire to much, much more, and educate ourselves to make that possible. Why would I, after working to educate myself and put myself in a position to where I make a comfortable living, embrace policies which have historically undermined everything I've worked for? The politicians and fat cat corporations certainly aren't supporting policies that undermine [i]their[/i] position. They're spending big bucks to dupe you into undermining yours, though.
Bob McCown said:David Hill said:Yea, not so much.
The annual salary of a worker today buys about the same as it did in 1960.
Try this on for size:
http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/compare/
If it wasn’t for the big mean corporations you would not have a computer, telephone, electricity, automobile, food on the table, internet access, or, in most cases a job or retirement investments.
I still have my budget someplace from when I was earning the equivalent of $12/hr with a family. It can be done, but not with all the crap people think they “need”.
Thanks for the link Bob! I found THIS rather telling. What they qualify as a “living wage” for our area is $27,239/yr in before tax income for two adults. Kim and I are subsisting on about $10.000 LESS than that. (And we have a neighbor couple that both work that we give food to who make even less!) ----- Yet folks with much, much, much more are crying that they can’t possibly live on what they make just because their taxes are too high? They say we waste money on 'entitlements (like disability and medicaid), on programs for those who have been marginalized (food stamps, unemployment, aid to families with dependent children, etc.) Yet support giving corporate welfare to companies that already make $billions? The farm bills were intended to help the struggling family farmers… But do you know who got and gets the lion’s share? Big corporations like ADM and Con-Agra… The problem ISN’T the programs themselves, it’s those who cynically abuse them. Be it a welfare cheat or a multinational corporation. There ARE folks that would happily throw your grandma to the wolves because, well it isn’t THEIR grandma. (And sometimes if it is, as long as they can make enough money on it).
(http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/8403c071-2dcc-46a6-ba22-8d01405dd3ea.jpg)
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/01/mccartin.erase.past/index.html?hpt=T2 http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/03/23/triangle-shirtwaist-factory/ http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/03/news/economy/federal_budget_dean_baker/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin http://abcnews.go.com/Business/february-unemployment-falls-long-term-jobless-struggle/story?id=13039978 Oh, and even though I wrote this back in January. The questions still apply http://www.the-ashpit.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405
I also thank everyone who has posted on this thread for the high level of civility - if only we could have more of it in politics.
I think that our election of a liberal, progressive president just as the economy was imploding has scared the crap out of us. Things are very tough for a lot of us and rest who really haven’t been affected are worried that they may be next. So the natural reaction is to try to preserve and protect what you’ve got regardless of who else may get hurt in the process. Unfortunately at times like this it’s often the weakest among us who get hurt. Taking Medicare, Medicaid, Universal Health-care and other social support systems apart will be disastrous and shameful in the world’s richest country. The dismantling of the civil service unions is a knee-jerk reaction in a time of uncertainty. The result will probably be a serious degradation in the quality of services we’ve come to expect. I’m not looking forward to waiting three hours to register my car or having my grandchildren being taught by the bottom 25% of the college graduating class. “Quality isn’t cheap” and I’m afraid we’re making a mistake by getting into this race to the bottom.
As we can see, the recovery is still very slow in terms of job creation. But the stock market has fully recovered and corporate profits are at an all time high. Worker productivity is also at all time highs because the workers who were not fired are now doing the work of two. Most of that money that’s being channeled up to the big corporations and wealthy investors is being used to create jobs overseas not in America, and that’s just wrong. It used to be true “that what’s good for GM is good for America” that’s no longer the case. While we’re screwing around trying to wring out a few more bucks from the unions and seniors the biggest U.S. corporations are showing record profits but paying no taxes.
I’m politically unaffiliated but I have a strong sense of justice. I’m outraged when I see multi-million dollar bonuses being paid out to executives of corporations that we’ve had to bail out, who haven’t created a single new American job while more and more folks are standing on street corners holding cardboard “will work for food” signs
David I have to respectfully disagree, the dollar is worth far less now than it was before the Creature from Jekyll Island came into being…1913 the Federal Reserve was sprung on the populace…we’ve gone downhill from there. The dollar has lost about 96% of it’s value in a few years less than 100.
You guys are missing my point, and, falling into the trap laid by the union thug bosses. I have no quarrel with union members.
My quarrel is with the union thug bosses, who do not have the interests of their membership at heart.
Union thug bosses destroyed the Merchant Marine in this country. Now, most shipping is done on foreign bottoms.
Union thug bosses destroyed the steel industry in this country. Steel is now produced off shore.
The AFT and the NEA do not have the interests of teachers foremost in their thoughts. Those unions would rather lay off teachers than save their jobs during this period of belt tightening.
I applaud the union membership’s desire for a better wage, but there is a point of diminishing returns, where the industry goes off-shore.
Mik, I do not think that your argument holds water. The movement away from child labor and towards safer work environments did not start with unions, they started with society’s disgust with those practices, unions just got on the band wagon.
The days of the robber barons are over. Society just will not stand for it.
I agree with Walter, corporate welfare should end. Let GE stand or fall on it’s merits. Same with agriculture. It is insane to pay farmers NOT to grow food, just as it is insane to use food to fuel our autos when all we have to do is drill for it.
C. Nelson said:When I was a kid, gold sold for $35.00 an ounce. That was just 50 years ago. Now it is upwards of $1200.00 per ounce. The dollar ain't worth what it once was.
David I have to respectfully disagree, the dollar is worth far less now than it was before the [b]Creature from Jekyll Island[/b] came into being....1913 the Federal Reserve was sprung on the populace...we've gone downhill from there. The dollar has lost about 96% of it's value in a few years less than 100.
I remember apologizing to the guy at the hobby shop when I bought a boxcar that I didn’t have anything smaller than a $5.00 bill. I took a,lost all of his change. The dollar just ain’t worth what it once was.
This is not a conservative/liberal issue, this is a right/wrong issue.
Kevin Strong said:Yep, Kevin gets completely out of control. Have to take a baseball bat to him, and even that doesn't work! :lol:
Without oversight, there's abuse. Plain and simple. Look at what happens here when Bob goes on vacation!
Bob McCown said:So, not calling Vic a m*r*n falls into this category, right? :PC. Nelson said:I don't mind lively discussion, but when it gets into name calling, its over. :)
and further, I'd like to Thank everyone for the civility shown in this thread. While I had NO intention of the discussion going this way, it has been refreshing to see our group of friends discuss what has become quite a hot-topic. I also appreciate Bob allowing the chat to continue.