I just watched that video of the 2-8-0 going through the Aristo switch. That is the same way my Aristo Mike stumbled through that switch. Nothing new. See Fr Fred’s fix for the problem.
I have an old friend from our childhood days (55 years ago or more!) who posts over there and he was one of the first to note how out of whack the drivers were on the 2-8-0’s and told Lewis what had to be done to fix them. Aristo’s response to him was that his track was out of gage and dismissed it was a problem with the loco. This member (in Washington state) dropped the matter and had both sets of drivers from two locos, remachined on the OUTSIDE contour ONLY. He now has two fine running 2-8-0’s! Nick and I both know the member on the other site, who had this machine work done AND how well his layout is engineered. To say that his track was out of gage, is almost laughable!
That video that was posted should be an embarrassment and THAT was AFTER the poster had improved the product!
One thing I can’t get a clear answer on… If the wheels on your loco are gauged wider than the 39.8mm which Lewis has said is factory spec, and they’re giving you issues (as that loco with wheels gauged in excess of that clearly does), have any of you sought any kind of resolution with Aristo, and if so, what was the response? Personally, I’d send the thing back and say “I don’t wanna see it again until the wheels match what you said it should be.” Yet in conversations with various people about this issue, I get the impression few have done that. I’m curious as to why that seems to be the case. (I’ve heard the story mentioned above, though I’m also curious what kind of push-back there was on that.)
There’s a very simple solution for the consumer who’s considering buying one of these locos: check the loco before you buy it. The people who have troubles are the people who have locos with wheels set too wide. The people who don’t have troubles appear the people who have locos with wheels set to factory specs. Make sure the wheels are set to factory specs. If they’re not, pick another loco. If the dealer is unwilling to check for you, pick another dealer.
Later,
K
Steve Featherkile said:So what your saying is the "NEW" 100 hours of testing at the factory 2 8 0 is no better than your mike that was made what 5 6 7 years ago ? that should tell you something rite there.
I just watched that video of the 2-8-0 going through the Aristo switch. That is the same way my Aristo Mike stumbled through that switch. Nothing new. See Fr Fred's fix for the problem.
Gary Armitstead said:
I have an old friend from our childhood days (55 years ago or more!) who posts over there and he was one of the first to note how out of whack the drivers were on the 2-8-0's and told Lewis what had to be done to fix them. Aristo's response to him was that his track was out of gage and dismissed it was a problem with the loco. This member (in Washington state) dropped the matter and had both sets of drivers from two locos, remachined on the OUTSIDE contour ONLY. He now has two fine running 2-8-0's! Nick and I both know the member on the other site, who had this machine work done AND how well his layout is engineered. To say that his track was out of gage, is almost laughable!:)That video that was posted should be an embarrassment and THAT was AFTER the poster had improved the product!
I agree Gary, It just sucks that he had to do all that work to get a "NEW and fully factory tested " loco to work properly.
Nick
Kevin Strong said:
One thing I can't get a clear answer on... If the wheels on your loco are gauged wider than the 39.8mm which Lewis has said is factory spec, and they're giving you issues (as that loco with wheels gauged in excess of that clearly does), have any of you sought any kind of resolution with Aristo, and if so, what was the response? Personally, I'd send the thing back and say "I don't wanna see it again until the wheels match what you said it should be." Yet in conversations with various people about this issue, I get the impression few have done that. I'm curious as to why that seems to be the case. (I've heard the story mentioned above, though I'm also curious what kind of push-back there was on that.)There’s a very simple solution for the consumer who’s considering buying one of these locos: check the loco before you buy it. The people who have troubles are the people who have locos with wheels set too wide. The people who don’t have troubles appear the people who have locos with wheels set to factory specs. Make sure the wheels are set to factory specs. If they’re not, pick another loco. If the dealer is unwilling to check for you, pick another dealer.
Later,
K
Kevin,
What I think you dont realize is that WE the buyers try to support our Dealers so sending them back product thats defective from the factory would in most cases cost us money and probably hurt the dealer that sold them to us.
Most of those guys are small self owned businesses and cant afford to pay shipping both ways and most likely not get repaid by the manufacture for the problems.
If its one thing i can say about Aristo is Navin is one of the best in the busness but even he cant fix bad wheels. Lewis promised new wheels and they still havent arrived almost a year later. Thats what really gets people mad, say one thing do another.
I had a small talk with Scott last year at ECLST show, and while I wont tell you what we talked about, I will tell you i will give him the benefit of being the new company President. This isnt a Scott issue, this was left over from the old school way of doing things and I hope for Scott sake that his "NEW"product from here on out is far better than the old guys cause at the prices this stuff will be selling at if it dont work properly out of the box, I suspect he will have a rough go of it.
As far as your review goes, I honestly think you guys at GR should stop doing them because in most cases you dont own them, therefore you dont get to run them for extended periods of time to see what really happens. I know you guys have to pay the bills with ads but when you say a product is good and someone buys one and it isn’t as in this case, you see what can happen. No disrespect to you or the other reveiwers, but I think you guys could do better things with the space.
Nicholas Savatgy said:Did I say that out loud? Oh, my!Steve Featherkile said:So what your saying is the "NEW" 100 hours of testing at the factory 2 8 0 is no better than your mike that was made what 5 6 7 years ago ? that should tell you something rite there.
I just watched that video of the 2-8-0 going through the Aristo switch. That is the same way my Aristo Mike stumbled through that switch. Nothing new. See Fr Fred's fix for the problem.
I think the switch has something to do with it, too. The frog sucks, and the guard rails need to be thrown away and rebuilt. Fixing that will help the problem a lot, but not entirely.
Steve Featherkile said:
.................. Did I say that out loud? Oh, my!I think the switch has something to do with it, too. The frog sucks, and the guard rails need to be thrown away and rebuilt. Fixing that will help the problem a lot, but not entirely.
Any Ventilator would now tell you that you wouldn’t have the problem if you’d buy LGB.
:lol: :lol: 
…I will quote a few anti NMRA people (From the past) here at this time…“Standards, we don’t need no friggen standards”…oh, so without standards, how are wheels and axles, and track gauge, going to work together…This Aristo, ongoing problem, whether it’s with their wheels, or their track, is an example of lack of standards, or failing to stick with any standards…
It’s still amazing, that a company manufactures, and markets a track gauge, and wheel gauge, but does not produce equipment that abides by that gauge. It can all be blamed on the actual manufacturers of the equipment, but the company that contracts the manufacturer, has to set the standards, and enforce the production to those standards through the signed contract…or am I missing something here…???
Thank you Padre!!!
As I mentioned on another forum in conjunction with track design and standards
HJ said:And we won't mention spelling or grammar, will we, Padre? :D ;)
From my perspective it is one of the differences between the European and the Northamerican approach. Europeans look at standards as fixed goal posts; Northamericans delight in moving the posts whenever they find it to their advantage i.e. standards are too cumbersome etc. etc.
… never…!!!
Fred Mills said:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps[/youtube]
.....I will quote a few anti NMRA people (From the past) here at this time....."Standards, we don't need no friggen standards"......oh, so without standards, how are wheels and axles, and track gauge, going to work together.....This Aristo, ongoing problem, whether it's with their wheels, or their track, is an example of lack of standards, or failing to stick with any standards.... It's still amazing, that a company manufactures, and markets a track gauge, and wheel gauge, but does not produce equipment that abides by that gauge. It can all be blamed on the actual manufacturers of the equipment, but the company that contracts the manufacturer, has to set the standards, and enforce the production to those standards through the signed contract.....or am I missing something here.........???
Strother Martin was excellent as the Captain 
Ralph
Gary Armitstead said:
I have an old friend from our childhood days (55 years ago or more!) who posts over there and he was one of the first to note how out of whack the drivers were on the 2-8-0's and told Lewis what had to be done to fix them. Aristo's response to him was that his track was out of gage and dismissed it was a problem with the loco. This member (in Washington state) dropped the matter and had both sets of drivers from two locos, remachined on the OUTSIDE contour ONLY. He now has two fine running 2-8-0's! Nick and I both know the member on the other site, who had this machine work done AND how well his layout is engineered. To say that his track was out of gage, is almost laughable!:)That video that was posted should be an embarrassment and THAT was AFTER the poster had improved the product!
Kevin,
This customer went back to Lewis himself and the answer he received was that his track was out of gage and that Aristo’s product was correct to standards. The customer gave up on dealing with Aristo and took care of the “fix” himself. Hired a machinist to turn two sets of drivers to the CORRECT contour and dimensions. The back-to-back WAS correct, but the dimension ACROSS the flanges was INCORRECT. Kevin, you know this MLS member AND you know the quality standards he follows on his railroad. Not all customers have the resources to correct a problem like this person. Also notice the Aristo ad in Garden Railways in an earlier issue announcing the coming 2-8-0 and also notice ALL four drivers are up AND riding on the fillets, NOT the tire itself.
In all fairness to the GR reviewer, if the item being reviewed conformed to factory specs and performed as expected, then the reviewer has no option other than to report his findings on that sample. This is the flawed method one uses when reviewing a product. A reviewer cannot exercise options outside of the sample provided. In general it is the factory that provides the sample, so is not the review method that is flawed? A reviewer cannot use anecdotal evidence or flaws detected on non-official sampled products, i.e., the exact item under review.
That being said, the criticism has been done to death on the Aristo forum many months ago when the loco was released. Of cause there was the flat denial scenario from the president, followed after consultation with a promise that a new wheel would arrive within two months to replace current ‘flawed’ wheelsets. Of cause that promise, like many others has gone with the wind and barring a rerun of the Consolidation, highly unlikely, we will never see a reprofiled wheel. Look to the reprofiled stainless wheelsets. Some got good, well performing motor blocks and others could not even maintain rail contact without repeated derailment.
Aristo responded to demands from modellers by redesigning the ‘out of quarter’ issue with the typical soft metal diecast wheelsets and responding to ‘scale’ demands by attempting to maintain an ‘ingauge’ back to back measurement. Alas, the combination of the collar insert in the wheel casting, the overly large very coarse profile wheel flange and the adherence to ‘scale’ back to back measurements, the overall wheel dimension exceeded track gauge requirements, resulting in a wheel gauge that allowed minimal or no track clearance when running. This caused the loco to ride up the rail and derail. No doubt the president is thinking, ‘everything was fine until someone wanted track standards implemented.’
For many years the Aristo-philes believed that when the president of the company bent over, sun shone out where sun should never be. Lewis could do no wrong. He had the ‘Midas’ touch. Every item produced was without flaw. To criticise a product was to bring down the wrath of God on the say doer. The unworthy, those who saw flaw with the product, were severely criticised and even in my case accused of single handedly trying to destroy the company. I, many years ago referred to this phenomenon, as the “Emperor’s new clothes” sydrone. Everything released was perfect and no criticism tolerated. This put the company in a false sense of invulnerability, thinking that they were perfect. The fiasco with the PCC and the final straw with the Connie wheels will be the undoing. I really do not forsee a rerun of the Connie. To do so will require eating humble pie and a complete redesign of the wheel flange profile. Aristo-philes have never eaten humble pie and with the economy tits up for another five or more years, will the company weather the storm?
Tim,
I have mentioned this many times as regards reviews: to get results like the next customer you buy off the shelf at a LHS and then put it through its paces like any other customer would. After that you check for everything that could be wrong (err … is wrong!) and you report it as found. This may require more than the cursory look and cavalier acceptance that seems to be the rule.
HOWEVER … chances are good that your review won’t see the light of day at certain publishers because keeping the advertisers happy is more important than informing the consumer. Of course as always strictly my opinion based on what I’ve been observing in the LS field!
PS oh yeah, after the change of the guard; have you heard the expression “from rags to riches to rags.”?
The manufacturer, or agent, supplies the sample for review, which of course allows the manufacturer to cherry pick the sample for review. Which makes it all the more incredible to me that the reviewer could receive a “duff” sample in the first place.
A couple of things about the review process itself have surfaced that make this ongoing discourse worthwhile.
1). If the reviewer receives a “duff” sample from the manufacturer it is considered OK to return said “duff” sample to the manufacturer for “correction” or “replacement” before the review takes place.
2). The reviewer is under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to mention this in the review.
I cannot comment on the AC 2-8-0 as I have yet to even see one in the flesh. Let alone work on one. What I can say is that I have a number of battery R/C clients who simply will not buy one because of the alleged gauge problems causing them to derail.
Contrast the warranty attitude of AC with that of Bachmann over, say, the Shay trucks saga. It took a lot of consumer pressure to drag Bachmann kicking and screaming to force them to face up to the issue, but face up they did, and fixed the problem as they have done with most of their design faults.
The K-27 wrong gear ratio is about the only notable omission.
Later iterations of original runs have improved out of sight.
The Shays fitted metal trucks are fantastic runners. The new Climax likewise, is simply just superb.
Do you think for one minute that if the LS buying public had not bitched and moaned about Bachmann shortcomings, Bachmann would have done anything about said problems? I think not.
Tim Brien said:.
You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.
Well, I was the one who started this thread. Wow!!! All I really wanted to know was…if you own one, how does it run? On a personal level, I did purchase the first run of PCC trolleys (MTA-Boston) and love it. The detailing is pleasing and it seems to run well (although, it spends most of the time on the display shelf). I paid about $160 and was thrilled to get it. I have sent back a Rogers loco from Aristo (smoke unit did not work). They fixed it and returned it working at no charge for shipping or repair. I also bought a Bachmann Connie that ran for a few runs and then died. Bachmann charged me for the return shipping, but provided me a new engine at no charge.
john papadonis said:John, to be fair, you did start your posting with reference to a posting on another site. I would say that few here actually read the site referred to. There is a review posted on this forum under the 'Reviews' section. Link refers -
Rather interesting exchange regarding the flaws and GR Review of the Aristo Consolitdation. Just curious, those of you who actually purchased one...how do they run?
http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?id=15276