Large Scale Central

Amtrak derailment at DuPont, Wa

Prototypes
#31

Railpictures dot net last night: http://www.railpictures.net/photo/641592/

I had 3 friends as passengers, in addition to the engineer. It took some time but eventually I was informed that all of my friends survived, but were hospitalized with pretty serious injuries. It should be noted, there were two people in the cab. Both survived and were taken to local hospitals.

…

Hearing the conductor make his emergency call was very scary, made worse by the knowledge of all the people I knew on board. Please keep the crew, passengers and loved ones of those affected in your prayers.

Please keep any comments positive and avoid speculation on the cause. Lets wait until the investigation is complete.

#32

When Positive Train Control is being discussed in news about Amtrak crash, keep some things in mind:

“Amtrak and the FCC
What bad wireless spectrum policy has to do with the recent, deadly train derailment.”
May 2015.
"But following the Amtrak derailment, people are suddenly conscious of the fact that the nation’s policies on access to the airwaves will impact almost everything in their lives.

So is Amtrak’s claim that spectrum access is a factor in this disaster legitimate? The answer is yes and no. Amtrak asked for exclusive, and expensive, spectrum, and this request—while puzzling—highlights deep structural problems with how our government has parceled out and regulated spectrum in the past.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2015/05/amtrak_train_derailment_positive_train_control_and_wireless_spectrum_policy.html

and

"

4 June 2017
Positive train control: is the US on track?
By Eva Grey

Another critical drawback is the issue of integration: PTC deployment requires various technical components to work together, many of them being ‘first generation technologies’ specifically designed and developed for PTC. The lengthy testing of these components takes time, which slows down delivery. Limitations in radio bandwidth and incomplete radio system requirements also played a big role.

“Interoperability sits upon the foundation of a huge, shared database with information the different railroads need to update and access regularly,” leading PTC expert and ARR consultant Jeff Young, wrote in an editorial.

“This includes information like the precise locations of thousands of railroad switches and wayside signals. This has been an enormous challenge, because rail operators need to keep this information updated even as switch and signal location changes are constantly changing,” he adds.

https://www.railway-technology.com/features/featurepositive-train-control-is-the-us-on-track-5825798/

#33

There is a relevant article in this railway trade journal, and that’s all I can get away with saying about it here,
http://www.railwayage.com/

#34

Staying out of the conversation but would like to also note these are Talgo cars in the consist which (probably) has NOTHING too do with what happened.

This post has been edited by: Rooster

#35

If anything I would say that the Talgo cars increased survival. They are semi-permanently coupled and might have helped keep more of them upright and together.

#36

A Google Plus friend brought this to my attention.

[QUOTE]A Cruel Irony’: 2 Killed in Amtrak Crash Were Rail Fans Eager for Maiden Run

By JULIE BOSMANDEC. 19, 2017

So quite a few of the people who boarded Train No. 501 on Monday for the maiden run were rail fans. And when the train crashed off the newly refurbished rails south of Tacoma with 77 passengers aboard, at least two of the three people who were killed in the accident came from that world.

James Hamre, 61, was a train enthusiast to his marrow, the son and grandson of railway employees, who spent his retirement promoting train travel. Zack Willhoite, 35, his close friend, worked for a transportation agency in Washington State and volunteered his free time for a regional rail advocacy group. Mr. Hamre’s family and Mr. Willhoite’s employer confirmed their deaths.

“It’s a cruel irony,” said Malcolm Kenton, a writer and consultant in the passenger rail industry who knew both men.[/QUOTE]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/19/us/amtrak-derailment-victims-washington.html

#37

For those that live outside the PNW, the PNW railfan community is a tight knit group of railfan and railroaders. A lot of us know some or all of the people on the train. One person I know has a broken pelvis and other injuries.

#38

Craig Townsend said:

One person I know has a broken pelvis and other injuries.

Pass along that we wish healing and comfort to them.

#39

It seems to be the week for inaugural train troubles - from a Google Plus friend in India;

Train of Delhi Metro’s Magenta line derails, crashes into wall even before inauguration

A trial run of a Metro train on the Magenta Line went off the rails.

IndiaToday.in | Posted by Bijin Jose
New Delhi, December 19, 2017 | UPDATED 19:43 IST

In an unfortunate turn of events, a trial run of a Metro train on the Magenta Line went off the rails (pun intended). The unmanned Metro train crashed into the wall of the Kalindi Kunj Metro depot.

The Kalkaji Mandir-Botanical Garden line of the Delhi Metro, which will reduce the travel time between Noida and south Delhi, will be inaugurated by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on December 25.

Also of interest with in it;

Metro’s new generation trains, which can run without drivers, will run on this section where an advanced Communication Based Train Control (CBTC) signalling technology that will facilitate movement of trains with a frequency of 90-100 seconds will also be pressed into service.

As a matter of fact, when the trains are in car shade they are operated manually. It remains unclear whether the train that crashed had a driver in it or not at the time of the accident.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/delhi-metro-crashes-magenta-line-kalindi-kunj-depot-pm-modi/1/1113629.html

#40

Forrest Scott Wood said:

It seems to be the week for inaugural train troubles - from a Google Plus friend in India;

Train of Delhi Metro’s Magenta line derails, crashes into wall even before inauguration

A trial run of a Metro train on the Magenta Line went off the rails.

A regular occurance with Indian Railways unfortunately…as for driverless trains over there…(Gulp!!)…

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/586-train-accidents-in-last-5-years-53-due-to-derailments/articleshow/60141578.cms

(see on the above the video…notice the army standing around doing nothing!)

#41

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20171222.aspx

[QUOTE]The lead locomotive’s event data and video recorders were successfully downloaded with the manufacturer’s assistance and processed in the NTSB’s lab in Washington, D.C. An initial review of the final portion of the accident sequence revealed the following information, which is preliminary and subject to change as the investigation continues:

Inward-facing video with audio captured the crew’s actions and their conversations. A forward-facing video with audio captured conditions in front of the locomotive as well as external sounds.
The crew was not observed to use any personal electronic devices during the timeframe reviewed.
About six seconds prior to the derailment, the engineer made a comment regarding an over speed condition.
The engineer’s actions were consistent with the application of the locomotive’s brakes just before the recording ended. It did not appear the engineer placed the brake handle in emergency-braking mode.
The recording ended as the locomotive was tilting and the crew was bracing for impact.
The final recorded speed of the locomotive was 78 mph.

A preliminary report detailing the facts and circumstances of the crash developed in this early stage of the investigation will be available on the NTSB website in the coming days.

The entire investigation is expected to last 12-24 months.[/QUOTE]

#42

I read somewhere that they are investigating whether milepost warning signs had been either been just recently removed or placed in the wrong location, so the crew didn’t know they were entering a slow down zone. Anyone else hear this?

#43

I haven’t come across the milepost/sign item, but then there is much I don’t catch in the media.

I am in the mood to add a bit of related content from one of the 4 Ry trade journals regularly looked at.

Talgos take over Cascade corridor01 Feb 1999

INTRO: Amtrak and Washington State DoT have put new tilting trains into service in the US Pacific Northwest, where traffic has doubled in the last five years.

…
Branded as Amtrak Cascades, the Talgos are the latest element in a long range plan that could see up to eight daily return trips between Seattle and Portland at up to 200 km/h.
…
Early reaction to the trains has been extremely positive, further vindicating WSDoT’s aggressive pro-passenger rail policy. The new stock forms part of a $200m programme to improve services and upgrade the 750 km Cascade corridor, most of which falls within the state. Some funding has come from Oregon, the US federal government, and British Columbia. Allowing the tilting Talgos to run at higher speeds through curves has already cut 25min off the 3h 55min schedule for conventional Amtrak rolling stock.

Annual ridership in the corridor has jumped from just over 226000 in 1993, the year before the first of two leased Talgos were placed in service, to 550000 in 1998, an increase of 137%.
…
The Talgos operate in push-pull mode with a so-called cabbage (cab-baggage) car at one end. These are life-expired F40 locos with the diesel engine removed and the engine compartment converted into baggage storage space. The cab and controls are retained to work with the F59.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/talgos-take-over-cascade-corridor.html

#44

"A retired railway official who worked on PTC offers the following observations:

“BNSF is not responsible for track construction and maintenance or signal installation and maintenance on the formerly BNSF-owned Lakewood Subdivision. Those functions have been assigned to contractors by the present owner, Sound Transit. BNSF does provide dispatching service. The dispatcher is the Seattle Subdivision dispatcher.

“Even though PTC was an unfunded mandate for all of the freight railroads, BNSF leadership was determined to have PTC installed by the original December 31 2015 deadline. That would have happened had it not been for the Federal Communications Commission blocking the permitting of the necessary communication towers until pressured into changing the process by the Obama Administration and Congress. BNSF had planned to develop and install PTC on its own before the 2008 mandate, and intended to pay for it with crew size reductions in the core territories where implemented."

"For many months now, the only trains operating on the Seattle Subdivision without operational PTC have been Amtrak trains. The same situation exists on many other BNSF subdivisions. As a matter of fact, PTC had already been installed and was in full operation on the Seattle Sub when an Amtrak train passed a red absolute signal and derailed in the switch point power derail protecting the Chambers Bay Drawbridge earlier this year. The problem was Amtrak trains were not PTC-equipped.

“The question has been asked as to why the new operation on the Lakewood Subdivision was implemented on December 18, before PTC implementation was complete. The answer: it did not make any difference since none of the Amtrak locomotives had PTC anyway."

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/north-america/overspeed-likely-cause-of-amtrak-crash.html

#45

Good information

Thanks Dave M.

#46

More information by a railfan passenger who was on the train. I will warn ahead of time that towards the end in what is called “3RD thing” and “6TH thing” it gets political so I would please ask that there be no comments on that just to keep it civil here and not to cause our host any grief. Otherwise this is a very good article with photos. I will kill the link myself if this goes south.

https://transitsleuth.com/

#47

It amazes me how many people post articles online, but don’t proofread them properly. Some passages in that text were challenging to read, but it is in interesting perspective on an accident, a perspective we seldom have.

#48

Hiatt is a former BNSF engineer who has been working as a railroad investigator with the Bremseth Law firm in Minnetonka, Minnesota, for the past 25-years. He lives in Puyallup, and has spent the four days since the deadly derailment speaking with multiple Amtrak and other railroad employees.

…

Based on what railroad employees have told him, Haitt said the engineer hit the curve at 78-miles an hour instead of 30 MPH because he most likely did not know there was a tight curve ahead.

“They just didn’t know where they were at.”

“These guys were trained in darkness. All of them,” Hiatt said he was told. “They couldn’t get availability to the track during the daytime, so that’s part of the factor.”

Another problem, according to Hiatt’s sources; too many engineers received training at once. “I’ve heard six people were in the locomotive cab, which has three seats.”

Hmm, event windows, deadlines, hurrying, agency image before safety … brings to mind an infamous accident involving a different mode of transportation.

“They were hurrying,” he told KIRO 7. “They had this little, tiny window and they had this December 18th deadline. Deadlines can’t be the dictator of how you do things. Safety has to be.”

http://www.kiro7.com/news/south-sound-news/railroad-investigator-says-its-wrong-to-point-a-finger-at-train-engineer/668115816

#49

Yes interesting read here and a lot of speculation. There is a lot more to the rest of the story. As I spent 31 years as a Track safety specialist one learns not all info is given to out side folks. Later RJD

#50

Interesting article today:“Details of ex-railroad chief’s side hustle revealed” https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/28/moonlighting-railroad-chief-mississippi-sheriff-370189