Large Scale Central

Amtrak crash in Philly

General Discussion
#41

I don’t know what he schedule was, but FRA regulations allow for 12 hours on duty, with 10 hours of rest, including time of call. This was changed in 2008 under RSIA. Prior it was 12 hours on duty, 8 off including time for call.

https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L03588

What time did he go on duty? What time was he called? Was he an extra board employee, or a regular pool run?

These are all factors that the NTSB will look into.

What I’ve read is that the train made a station stop 10 minutes prior. Is 10 minutes enough time to close your eyes? Maybe.

Here’s another thought that I haven’t heard mention. Is the 50 mph speed limit the regular speed limit or was it a temporary slow order?

#42

It is very intriguing to me that the speed went up from 75 mph instead of down before the 50 mph section. Brings me back to my original thoughts that there may be an unknown issue with the new ACS-64 locomotives. 75 mph sounds just about right before the 50 mph section.

As they rack up mileage, unknown gremlins could pop up. And this being the class loco, #601, makes it even more intriguing.

Should be interesting in the next coming weeks and months as the NTSB releases more info.

#43

Ray Dunakin said:

I think it’s astonishing that there weren’t more fatalities. I’m guessing there must not have been many passengers in the first car – if there had been more in that car, surely the death toll would have been a lot higher.

That is the very first thing I thought to myself after seeing the first car. It could have been 40 + if that coach was full. I believe this was the business class coach on Amtrak #188.

Eerily similar to the infamous Chase Maryland wreck…in that the first coach was completely destroyed, but sparsely occupied.

#44

Steve Featherkile said:

Well, this is interesting. It seems that the Positive Train Control system is installed in the area of the curve, but was not turned on, because the bureaucrats couldn’t figure out how to get enough band-width to operate the thing. Its been there for a year or so, it seems, but turning it on did not seem to be a priority, even to save lives.

Washington Examiner: Speed Control Installed, But Not Turned On.

CNN said this morning, yes that PTC is on that curve but not that track it is on the next track over.

#45

This is a pretty good graphic.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/13/us/investigating-the-philadelphia-amtrak-train-crash.html

#46

Richard Beverly said:

Steve Featherkile said:

Well, this is interesting. It seems that the Positive Train Control system is installed in the area of the curve, but was not turned on, because the bureaucrats couldn’t figure out how to get enough band-width to operate the thing. Its been there for a year or so, it seems, but turning it on did not seem to be a priority, even to save lives.

Washington Examiner: Speed Control Installed, But Not Turned On.

CNN said this morning, yes that PTC is on that curve but not that track it is on the next track over.

PTC was in effect in one direction of travel only for that section (all main tracks). Think they refer to that direction as Westbound. However the direction of the wreck (Eastbound), obviously, was not operational yet.

#47

I wonder if the NTSB report will come out in my lifetime, and will it be a cover-up of Amtrak failures. Of course, the Operator will be toast no matter what.

#48

NTSB Twitter feed has some interesting news…
https://mobile.twitter.com/NTSB

#49

Greg, its not unusual for people to have no memory of a crash. Its a traumatic event, such that the brain will sometimes just block it out. No, I am not saying its consciously blocked, its a subconscious thing. Something to do with psychology. A class that I did sleep in, and it didn’t take me 10 minutes to fall asleep neither.

Andrew, but of course they will blame the operator, engineer, pilot, captain, driver, or whoever was controlling the machinery involved in whatever accident.

#50

David Maynard said:

Greg, its not unusual for people to have no memory of a crash. Its a traumatic event, such that the brain will sometimes just block it out. No, I am not saying its consciously blocked, its a subconscious thing.

Yep. I got rear-ended pretty badly once, and I could remember the impact but not much else. It took a couple days before I could recall everything that happened – and that was a much more minor accident.

#51

I got my clock cleaned by a linebacker once.  I still haven't sorted that out.  Its only been 35 years, so there is still hope.  

#52

Steve Featherkile said:

I got my clock cleaned by a linebacker once. I still haven’t sorted that out. Its only been 35 years, so there is still hope. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)

Oh, that explains everything (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

#53

FBI has been called in ? if some thing come thru windshield first.

#54

Richard, if something had come through the windshield, that would explain a lot. But that is still an if at this point.

#55

So, some guy says that he hacked the avionics of the aircraft he was on and took control of the aircraft(on the news today). I’ve seen automobiles taken over, remotely, by computer hackers. Is it possible that some smart idiot hacked that AMTRAK train? And they will never tell us?

Uh oh, the black helicopters are circling my house, again. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-sealed.gif)

#56

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amtrak-crash-probe-exploring-whether-221128643.html;_ylt=AwrXnCZvVFpVLnQAYKTQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByYnR1Zmd1BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg–

OK So question in total ignorance. If something did come through the window just before entering the curve and it struck the engineer and knocked him out why would this cause the train to go to 106 miles per hour. I could see it if it was continuing to accelerate after leaving a station or something but shouldn’t the train have been slowing or at the very least maintaining speed at or below the previous limit of 70-80 (depending on what you read).

I is interesting that another train moments before was struck by an object in the very same place. Seems very plausible. Just not sure why the train would be going that fast in the first place.

Edit: here is a story that a third train was hit by an object around the same place at the same time. Police investigated.

http://7online.com/news/sources-tell-wpvi-tv-human-error-may-have-caused-amtrak-derailment-/718120/

So whether or not it caused the crash it sure sounds as if stuff was being thrown at the trains.

#57

Devon, the throttle is a lever on the desk/panel. If the engineer were struck, and if he had his hand on the lever, who is to say he didn’t “command” the acceleration when he was stuck. I am not saying it was intentional, I am saying he jerked his hand that way when he was struck. Of course, before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, this is all speculation at this point.

#58

David Maynard said:

Devon, the throttle is a lever on the desk/panel. If the engineer were struck, and if he had his hand on the lever, who is to say he didn’t “command” the acceleration when he was stuck. I am not saying it was intentional, I am saying he jerked his hand that way when he was struck. Of course, before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, this is all speculation at this point.

I agree it is speculation and is a big if. You answered my if. I guess I didn’t think about the train still being operated by a throttle handle. I can see if he got whacked and went out and pushed the throttle on and then came to just in time to hits the brakes it all sounds plausible.

#59

It’s quite plausible to visualize this: Approaching the curve his hand is on the throttle, pulling back and beginning to reduce speed, the windshield explodes in front of him and reflex causes him to push back to flee and the throttle goes up…

Hopefully the answers will come.

John

#60

Devon,

I think this might help answer your question from the perspective from the cab. Hopefully I don’t go too deep in the weeds.

Here’s an image of a standard AAR desktop control stand, one which I would likely guess is similar to what Amtrak uses. Right to left. Independent, automatic (train brake), throttle (I’ll explain), reverser (controls forward/back). Don’t worry about the rest of the buttons. The throttle has basically 3 settings; dynamic (all the way forward), neutral, power (all the way back). Both dynamic and power settings have a series of settings 1-8, with 8 being the highest.

My educated guess, as a former engineer, is that prior to the curve the engineer was in a high throttle setting (6-8) as he was accelerating through the 60 mph straight section (see below, guessing it’s 60 because he’s going 58).

If I was running this is how I normally would approach the curve.

If he drops the throttle to idle to slow down for the curve the train is going to bunch up. So in normal circumstances, he leavves the throttle setting in a high setting, and makes a 6-8 pound set on the train line (red handle), making what rails refer to as Powerbraking. This keeps the slack tight, but allows the train to slow. As the air starts to ‘bite’ he likely drops a couple of notches (1-3) and makes another set of air. As he enters the 50 mph curve, he kicks off the air (if not already), than take a notch or two. As soon as the rear end clears the curve (remember this is Amtrak, not a 5000’ train), he notches back up to 8 for the higher speed section. Not once, does he remove the throttle from power and place it into dynamic braking to slow down for the curve.

I think I read that the NTSB released information saying that the event recorder showed the throttle in a high throttle position. This leads me to believe that for what ever reason, the engineer was unable to make either his initial brake application, or the second reduction to further slow the train down. Now Amtrak responds a lot faster than a 5000’ freight train, so it’s highly likely that he wasn’t planning on making a set until the last moment, because he knew the train, and knew the territory it’s likely that he (and other engineers) had a specific landmark in which they used to make a set.

Why he didn’t make the set? Who knows, that’s what the NTSB is going to find out hopefully.

I’ll just as an a former freight engineer, it’s really, really fun to run a train by powerbraking and not using dynamics. Makes a really smooth ride, and quick acceleration out of the slow areas. The best was powerbraking a loaded 15,000 ton grain train from 45mph down to 25 mph to go through a turnout…If you timed everything just right, the lead engine would hit the first set of points at 25-26 mph…