Large Scale Central

America: The Story Of Us

You might answer “ok, they were not allowing slaves in the army, but what about free blacks?”

There were less than 500, 000 free blacks in the confederate states in 1860. Let’s do some simple estimates. At least half of them would have been women, leaving 250, 000 men. How many of that number would have been of age for service, neither too young nor too old? Let’s say 1/3 were over 12 and under 50. That leaves 83, 333 able bodied free blacks IN THE ENTIRE SOUTH.

OK, let’s say half of the 250,000 men–125, 000–were “able bodied.” A very generous estimate, as you will see. That still means a greater percentage of free black men would have served in the Confed. Army than free white men.

Look at it this way–there were 27 million white people in the south in 1860. The Confed army, at its height, did not quite have 450, 000 people in it. Think about that–27 million people produced 450, 0000 soldiers. What’s percentage there–maybe 2%? And yet we are supposed to believe that 75% of FREE blacks fought for the confederacy?

It’s a pretty clear that at this point that we are entering the realm of fantasy.

point proven:
every war is fought over (at least) two truths.

Point proven: some ideas are totally fact-proof

mike omalley said:
Point proven: some ideas are totally fact-proof
Mike, So much for the history lesson..............how are the trains coming along? I'm still waiting to see the Boxcab finished :D Ralph

Gee, Mike, I guess I got under your skin, again. So, by your estimate, how many Black Confederates were still serving when the war ended?

Single handedly, you seemed to have turned this into a fight. Nice touch.

Like Ralph said, how are your trains coming.

I’m not fighting–what you posted was simply not true. It’s like this.

You “Geo Washington was the leader of the Confederacy.”
Me: “That’s not true–here’s why”
You: “why do you want to start a fight?”

I’m not sure why you see this as a fight.

Gee I thought that this was a site about garden railroading! NOw we have a historical debate on the War between the States or what ever nome you want to use.

We don’t need no stinkin history lessons, train stories PLEASE!! This is a train site!! Regal ok let the beatings begin!! Hah LOL

Well I guess The History Channel either got it all wrong in their mini-series, or they deliberately falsified the statistics. There were quite a few errors I noticed as I watched the first four shows.

Too bad “The History Channel” broadcast false history. Still the locomotive segments were interesting even if inaccurate.

There were some slaves and free blacks who assisted the confederacy in various capacities. But the CSA did not authorize black enlistment until very very late. There were two companies authorized by the CSA late in the war–they never saw action. That makes maybe 300 men.

My objection was to the number 90,000.

The history channel wants to sell tires and soap–accuracy is not the top priority.

I assume all you who don’t care about the Civil War can just…not read the thread? Is that hard or something? It’s not a political debate, it’s a debate about historical fact.

Mr. Omalley, those who do not study history are bound to repeat it! I am not interested in repeating that one! The one a bit earlier we may have to repeat!

Paul

Quote:
Estimates of Black Confederate Serving the South

How many black Confederates served the South in combat or direct battlefield support ? The numbers vary wildly from 15,000 to 120,000. The truth remains that nobody has an accurate figure. My estimate is that 65,000 blacks scattered across the entire South followed the Confederate armies from one battlefield to the next from 1861 to 1865. Larger numbers of blacks loyally served the Confederacy, not as soldiers but as employees of the Army, Navy, Confederate government or the individual State governments.

Where does this estimate of 65,000 come from ?

Dr. Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission, observed that Gen. “Stonewall” Jackson’s troops in occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: “Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc…and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army.”

If we assume Dr. Steiner is somewhat reliable and assume that this 3,000 Negroes of Jackson’s troops are a representative number of black Confederates in a typical Confederate fighting force, then we may be able to make a rough calculation. First we must determine how many men were part of Jackson’s troops ? If Lee had 50,000, was Jackson’s force, 25,000 ? That would be a likely estimate. So then what percentage is 3,000 of 25,000 ? Answer: 12 %. So that would tell us that 12% of Jackson’s force was black Confederates. Now, if we assume that Steiner meant 3,000 blacks soldiers in Lee’s entire 50,000 force that crossed the Potomac, then the percentage of black Confederates is reduced to 6%. Either way it is calculated, black Confederates were a considerable percentage of the total Confederate fighting force.

To extend this reasoning across the entire Confederate Army, what does this represent ? That depends on the total number of men that served in the CS Army, which is also in itself debatable as muster rolls are notoriously incomplete.

For example, let’s use for example the 1,000,000 listed names in Broadfoot’s Confederate roster compiled by the National Archives. Yes, there is some repeat names, but let’s use that figure as an example. What percentage is 12% ? This would translate to 120,000 black Confederates and half that, 60,000. As such, the 65,000 estimate is not an unreasonable estimate. Debatable ? Yes. Refutable ? Absolutely not. Black Confederates imaginary ? Ridiculous

Could Dr. Steiner have been wrong regarding the numbers ? Yes, absolutely. In fact, many Army officers routinely made mistakes at estimating the enemies numerical strengths. However, the smaller the body of troops one is estimating, the more likely that number is correct. While Steiner failed to accurately estimate Lee’s total forces (I recall he estimated 80,000 instead of 50,000), in my opinion, it is unlikely he erred as significantly with a handful of 3,000 black troops. So even if Steiner made an overestimate of 30%, we still are in the range of 40,000 to 80,000.


About the Author: Scott K. Williams is a St. Louis historian and writes articles for the American Local History Network and The Missouri Civil War Museum at Jefferson Barracks. He is a kinsmen of Lt. Col. James B. McCreary, who submitted a petition to the Confederate Congress, on behalf of Confederate soldiers, requesting slaves be recruited as soldiers in the Confederate Army. He is also a descendant of Union soldiers, abolitionists, and a member of the U.S. Grant Camp, Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War. He is also author of , “Slavery in St. Louis”, “U.S. Colored Troops” (And the Plight of the Refugee Slave), and “Benton Barracks”.
Online Resources Regarding Black Confederates:

Terrell’s Texas Cavalry, a historical multi-racial Confederate unit.

George McDonald, Proud Black Confederate of Missouri

Black Confederate Pensioners of Marshall County, Mississippi.

Rev. William Mack Lee Narrative (Gen. Robert E. Lee’s black servant) “I was raised by one of the greatest men in the world. There was never one born of a woman greater than Gen. Robert E. Lee, according to my judgment. All of his servants were set free ten years before the war, but all remained on the plantation until after the surrender.”

Copyright 1998-2003, by Scott K. Williams, All Rights Reserved. Permission granted to reproduce this fact sheet for educational purposes only. Must include this statement on all copies.

To put a cork in this y’all needed to Google “Black Confederate Soldiers” You will get a eye full and a ear full to boot. One of the most scholarly is found at this site http://www.scv357.org/blkconf/pdf/RoleofBlacksConfederateArmy.pdf
Some scholars are stating that up to 50,000 blacks were actively engaged IN UNIFORM in the Confederate Army. The Confederate Government in Richmond may have banned their enlistment, but individual Confederate States did not and actively recruited blacks beginning in 1861.
Noel

mike omalley said:
I assume all you who don't care about the Civil War can just...not read the thread? Is that hard or something? It's not a political debate, it's a debate about historical fact.
I don't mind the history debate...........but I'd still like to hear about your trains ;) Ralph
Ralph Berg said:
mike omalley said:
I assume all you who don't care about the Civil War can just...not read the thread? Is that hard or something? It's not a political debate, it's a debate about historical fact.
I don't mind the history debate...........but I'd still like to hear about your trains ;) Ralph
Me, too! Wassup, shipmate?

David, nearly all the argument for there being 60-90,000 black troops in the Army of the CSA rests on the statement of Lewis Steiner that he saw 3000 armed black men with Stonewall Jackson in 1862. This one eyewitness account is then extrapolated as an average for all units of the CSA Army., as in the example above. There are a ton of problems with that as evidence, starting with A: was Steiner right about the number? B: was he right he saw soldiers, and not slaves in support units? C: can you extrapolate what he saw to apply to the rest of the CSA? D: what was Steiner’s agenda? (see last paragraph below)

Meanwhile, none of the other accounts from the occupation of Frederick support this observation. None of the confederate soldiers who were at Fredrick write about it–in fact, as Manning points out, white CSA soldiers were for the most part strongly opposed to using slaves in the Army, and again, there’s the fact that the govt. of the CSA forbid the enlistment of slaves. There are no accounts from natives of Frederick of 3000 armed black men in town. There are very few accounts from northern soldiers of black troops in arms for the CSA, and keep in mind Civil War battles were heavily covered by reporters. There are no contemporary accounts from reporters of large numbers of armed black soldiers in the CSA. There is violent political opposition to the idea of arming black men from the vast majority of southern politicians.

Even Steiner’s account notes that the appearance of black soldiers was “rather interesting when considered in connection with the horror rebels express at the suggestion of black soldiers being employed for the National defence.” Take a look at the rest of what Seiner writes–you can find it on google books–and you might come away with less trust for him as a source. Steiner’s account is highly contemptuous of the CSA Army and he goes out of his way to make it look bad. That is, he appears to have an agenda. The 3000 black soldiers figure looks far less reliable when you read the rest of his account.

David Hill said:
If we assume Dr. Steiner is somewhat reliable and assume that this 3,000 Negroes of Jackson's troops are a representative number of black Confederates in a typical Confederate fighting force, then we may be able to make a rough calculation.
This is flawed logic. One can not make this assumption. One could just as easily assume these were the only 3000 Negro troops in the Confederacy. Neither is a logical assumption.

We have around 10 employees at the company I work. No minorities. Can we then assume that 100% of the work force in this particular industry are white based on this one example? Of course not.

The whole point of this debate is flawed. One can not accurately prove how many Negros fought for the South without making unsubstantiated assumptions…
Ralph

Okay! Okay!

I am reading a book, “An Empire Divided. The American Revolution and the British Caribbean” by Andrew Jackson O’Shaughnessy Interesting are of the 26 British Colonies only the 13 on the mainland fought for liberty and why, and the freed and runaway black slave militias fighting the islanders. I’ll read about the Confederacy next after this discussion. Any suggestions for books to begin my (re) education?

I STILL liked the segment from the show about the 1860-1890 locomotives and the significance the 4-4-0 steam engine played in the war and expansion Westward.

Still haven’t heard trains are… We are on the third page, it is time for thread jacking…

Steve Featherkile said:
Still haven’t heard trains are… We are on the third page, it is time for thread jacking…

All talk…and no action :lol: However, I like history so… A former station in Baltimore

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The B & O Roundhouse in Baltimore. Was not used for locomotives, but for car repair.

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