Large Scale Central

Airwire or Revolution?

If you’re JUST looking for a comparison between Revolution and Airwire, here’s my take.

Revolution -

Price is the biggest advantage ($100ish). You get sound (not great sound, but sound), motor, and basic light control. For probably 75% of the hobbyists, this will be more than enough. It is easily paired with the Phoenix sound system for higher-quality sound. Note that the Revolution only has 6 function outputs, and Phoenix will take 4 of them, leaving you only two for lights and smoke (excluding headlights which are separate). Again, this may be enough for you. If you’re using the auxiliary outputs for lights, they cannot draw much current (50mA or so each), and they are on/off. If you want a strobe, ditch lights, firebox flicker, or other specialized lighting effect, you must buy a board which specifically generates those effects. There are a few manufacturers who make such boards.

Control is via pushbuttons. Up arrow to go faster, down arrow to go slower, Hold the button for long increases or decreases. Function buttons control lights and sounds. Built-in sound volume has three stages of volume–low, medium, and high. Phoenix sound is changed via a center-off toggle switch. (There’s a way to do that using the function outputs, but with only 6 available, most opt to use them for other functions.)

Programming is all done on the transmitter using menu-driven options. It’s pretty intuitive once you do one or two locos. You can do basic speed curves and speed matching of consisted (“MU”) locomotives. You can program start voltage and maximum speed (great for “little” engineers who otherwise like to go fast), and you can program momentum so your loco starts and stops more realistically. The momentum setting is the same for acceleration and deceleration. There is an “all stop” button which brings everything being controlled by that throttle to a halt fairly quickly. (It’s not instantaneous, as it sends a “stop” command to each cab sequentially. If your loco is on the upper end of the list of cabs, it will take a second or two before it stops.)

Range is excellent.

The architecture of programming locos takes some initial thought. You have locos and you have cabs. Thing of the cabs as mail boxes, and locos as envelopes. You program the locos, then assign them to cabs. It’s like putting envelopes in each mail box. You can put one loco in a mailbox (a single control cab) or a whole bunch of locos in a cab (a consist or “MU” cab). To get to a specific locomotive to control it, you scroll through all the cabs you are using until you find the one with your specific loco. The loco name is displayed on the controller.

Airwire (Throttle and G3 or plug-and-play receiver)

More expensive ($140ish), and does not natively give you the option for sound. That’s extra. You do have built in light and smoke controls, and you can program those light outputs to various lighting effects. Sound can be easily added. You can add a Phoenix sound board via the G3’s DCC output, or you can add an analog sound system from Dallee or MyLocoSound and control it via the board’s lighting function outputs. Because the interface between the Airwire and Phoenix board is DCC, you can control many more sounds on the Phoenix than you can using the Phoenix via the Revolution.

Speed control is via a convention knob. Depending on the specific throttle, you either have a “digital” knob with no definite start and stop points (T-5000), or a more traditional knob with definite start and stop points (RF-1300 “OPS”). Functions are via pushbuttons.

Programming the receiver is done via standard DCC protocol. If you are unfamiliar with DCC programming, you might want to read up a bit on it. There’s a learning curve. It’s not terribly steep for the basic functions, but the more in-depth you go, the more difficult it can be. Fortunately, the G3 receiver is pretty basic, and the manual explains things well (though it may be a bit mysterious if you are completely new to programming DCC CVs.) You need the T-5000 transmitter in order to program the receiver. The “OPS” throttle is for running only. There is no “emergency stop” button on the Airwire throttle which brings your loco to an almost immediate stop. Stopping the locomotive is subject to the deceleration setting you have programmed. If you don’t have any momentum programmed into your receiver, then the loco will stop quickly. If you have a lot of momentum programmed in, it will stop slowly. The G3 has a “cruise control” option which will maintain a given speed of the locomotive regardless of changes in grade or load on the locomotive. I’ve used this on a locomotive running up and down grades as steep as 8% with very little perceptible change in actual speed. For those who have hilly railroads, this is a great feature to have.

Range is okay, but not fantastic. I can reliably get around 30’ range on all my installations, and “almost always” around 60’ (except, of course, when needing to stop quickly.)

There are two components of a locomotive–its frequency and its address. The frequency is simply the channel the transmitter broadcasts on. Airwire offers 17 distinct frequencies. The loco address is a DCC standard address, and can be anywhere from 0 - 9999. There are two thoughts when running Airwire. If you are typically a solo operator, then you can set all your locos to the same frequency and use unique DCC addresses for each loco. If you run in a group environment where you’ve got multiple operators running Airwire, it may be more advantageous to assign each loco a unique frequency instead.

The transmitters - Airwire offers two versions of their transmitter. The T-5000 is their programming transmitter which you need to program the receivers. If you are operating with multiple Airwire operators, you can control the power output of the T-5000 to be very short range (5’ - 10’ max) so you can have multiple operators all running on the same frequency. You can also use the T-5000 to change the frequency of the receiver–just remember what you set it to for next time. The OPS throttle is designed for operating. You cannot program the locomotive with this throttle. You can change the frequency which the transmitter is broadcasting on, and you can select which loco you’re running. It’s great for just everyday running. (I like the knob with distinct start and stop points–I know when it’s set to 0 without having to look at anything.) The T-5000 uses two AAA batteries, and drains them faster than a beer at a football game. The OPS throttle uses rechargeable batteries (mini USB) and I can get many hours on a single charge.

The Airwire transmitters are also compatible with the Tam Valley Depot line of receivers, which you can pair with any DCC motor/sound decoder.

When I was running either the Revolution/Phoenix or Airwire/Phoenix combinations, I was on the fence as to which one I preferred. The motor control on the Airwire was a bit more precise, so I tended to use that on my locos whose motors needed a little bit of coaxing to run smoothly and evenly. I still believe the graphic display on the Revolution is the best I’ve used on a number of systems, and the battery life on the transmitter is very good.

Later,

K

OK, I can see that when I post here that I have to be extremely careful with my wording. Seems that posts will be dissected, possibly misconstrued, and end up not being what was intended by the poster in the first place. Guess I’d better come up with improved communication skills and articulate my thoughts better than I have been conveying so far. I’ve read this board for a few years now and I’m very familiar with some of the members and personalities and how it is on here. Trust me, there’s no malice intended with any of my posts. If I’m soliciting input from people here, which I am, the last thing I want to do is piss people off.

John, I thought I already explained away Bill’s recommendation of the “G-Scale Graphics” guy, and Bill seemed OK with it. I’d never heard of “G-Scale Graphics” before, and when I thought Bill was going off on a tangent about graphics, I brought it up. Maybe I shouldn’t have. I was at fault for misinterpreting him. OK?

I didn’t mean to open a can of worms and become target practice (but at the same time greatly appreciate your help). Thanks to Greg and Kevin for explaining alternatives and sound/speed synchronization for more realistic operation. I’ll definitely look into it. I don’t have my thumb on the pulse of products coming out in the future, but obviously continuous improvement is good for the hobby. Also, thank you to Chris Kieffer for your straight-up answers and opinions. I subscribe to the KISS philosophy (not the Rock group). And again, I have pretty much narrowed it down to two systems. I already have one engine converted to Airwire/Phoenix/battery, but before I go any further with completing the battery conversion in my fleet, I wanted to get a consensus here on Airwire and Revolution. That’s all. Am I repeating myself again?? I just want to get these conversions done and outta the way and hope I can do it before I get hit by a truck or my house burns down. Thanks!

  • Mike

Mr. Strong, thanks very much for taking the time to provide a well-written, detailed, and informative post. I learned a lot from it. Very much appreciated! (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-smile.gif)

The only things I have to add, is that Kevin’s review ignores the CONVRTR from AirWire, which lets you use any DCC decoder, and thus enjoy the better motor control and sound synchronization.

Also Kevin does not address the Revolution DCC system.

I would suggest re-reading my post that presents these options, so you have TWO ways to use AirWire and you have TWO ways to use the Revolution.

The difference between the 2 AirWire ways is using the CONVRTR gives you synchronized sound and better motor control and more flexibility.

The differences in the Revolution are more profound, since the DCC system was designed from the ground up to use DCC motor & sound decoders, and you don’t “waste” the sound on the standard Revolution system, and saves a few dollars in that case which can go to the motor and sound decoder.

If you add up the costs, I believe the Revolution DCC system with a good quality decoder beats the price of the AirWire system, and also you can forget worrying about frequencies.

If I was starting, I would go the Revolution DCC, if I already had a large investment in AirWire, I would consider staying with it, but would still go with the CONVRTR and pure DCC decoders.

Greg

Greg, you must have missed my first post (page 4 on my computer). I talked about using the Convertr and Tam Valley Depot receivers in conjunction with Airwire transmitters and standard DCC decoders in that post, since that’s the combination I’ve migrated to over the past 4 or 5 years. I also mentioned the Revolution DCC and other systems that are soon to hit the market to provide wireless battery control of DCC decoders. I’ve not used the Revolution DCC system, so I can’t speak to how well it works. The other systems are still in development, but look promising from what I’ve been told about them. (And have you seen what Martin Sant has been doing with the ProtoThrottle??? SLICK!)

My post above (top of page 5) is solely a side-by-side comparison of the two specific control options Michael asked about in his original post. I didn’t see where anyone else had offered a comparison, and since I have used (and still use) both control systems, I figured in addition to my first post suggesting new ways to get better sound and control options, I’d actually answer his original question. :wink:

Later,

K

You confused me about mentioning the Tam Valley equivalent to the AirWire-made CONVRTR.

This product is the DRS-1, no longer sold by Tam Valley, but by another company here a few miles from me, and it only works on channel 16. So for that option I would definitely stick with the AirWire-made CONVRTR.

On the revolution DCC system, it is available for sale, and I have used it, so I can speak to it’s availability and function.

Want Michael to have the latest and accurate information, and again since you mentioned motor control, which is only on the G2/G3, it gave somewhat of a negative to the AirWire, as you did not mention that you have no such issues with the AirWire CONVRTR and a modern motor control system in any of the fine DCC units you can use.

Greg

p.s. yes I saw what Martin did to interface the proto-throttle, although the protothrottle interfaces to my DCC system directly without any extra modifications…

Lots of good tech information on the comparison of the two systems, how about a little non tech comparison of them.

First I have used Air Wire/Phoenix with battery’s for a dozen years or more, five locos and 4 rail trucks. So I don’t have much knowledge of the newest Air Wire products.

Installed the first Revo with sound unit in just the past year, now have two locos using it.

I’m non tech and don’t really want to spend lots of time “coming up to speed” learning to install one system every year or two, rather spend my time running or modeling.

That’s the groundwork for my statements below.

Air Wire/Phoenix

A real challenge to install (pre plug and play)

Even larger challenge to program and keep operational.

Something is always temporarily going wonkers, a sound drops out then back in with no known reason. Etc.

Using one TX for several different locos can get interesting if every loco is not programmed EXACTLY the same.

TX battery life fair to good.

Range is excellent but not that great an issue in a walk along point to point.

Sound is great, especially the real time capabilities. Most times too great, the switch for volume control is on the loco and has to be diddled for up or down for changes.

Example; set for loud outdoors run loco indoors and it blows your years out, catch or stop the loco and diddle the switch to get the setting right. Kinda takes away from the experience,

at least for me.

All in all a good system, have ran them for a dozen years with no major complications.

Yea, they are pricey.

Revolution W/ sound.

Pretty simple install, even for me, some help from the dealer and I was running in a few hours. I found that Plug and Play is not quite as advertised if your

going to hook up charging jack, speaker, lights, and some other things.

Once understood the programming is quite simple and straight forward.

A couple of times the TX has dropped an RX address (reason unknown) simple and quick reprogram.

One TX on two locos is quick and easy changing back and forth. (I don’t run 2 single locos at the same time)

TX battery life seems to be very good so far.

Range is great, maybe better than the Air Wire, but can’t prove it nor do I want to.

Sound is alright, all pre-programmed and limited, no real time. Four buttons on the TX for sound; high, medium, low, on and off. quick and easy.

I think that for me, the Revo is a great system and will move forward with them, and I like the price point.

A couple of further observations.

Smoke units.

To me the smoke issued from them looks like a cartoon, just damn silly. The battery draw, oil mess all over, and short bursts of smoke

are just not worth the effort, so I don’t even think about using them. Sure you can up the game and install super unit with fan and coordinated

chuff, think about where you will install the extra battery.

Sound.

Years ago after listening to the Big Hauler “Buzzzzz” sound system for too long I thought my first Phoenix was from Heaven. Ran that sucker long and loud, then it

occurred to me one day while switching, all that damn noise is really irritating. Since my RR is point to point switching I hardly ever use the sound, and if I do it is

at the very lowest settings possible.

Well there ya are, all non tech and probably not worth much to ya.

I wonder what the “Dynamic braking” sounds like coming down this helix ?

RickRolling is an option on either controller as they both have a sound packet attached.

Non tech “how it works” and “how you like it” is probably even more important than specs, specs don’t mean a thing if it makes you crazy to operate it for example. (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

Greg

Amen

Thanks, Rick! It was worth it to me and I’m sure to others here.

And y’all gave me things to look at for the future. (As it stands, Revo in a couple years).

Greg Elmassian said:

You confused me about mentioning the Tam Valley equivalent to the AirWire-made CONVRTR.

This product is the DRS-1, no longer sold by Tam Valley, but by another company here a few miles from me, and it only works on channel 16. So for that option I would definitely stick with the AirWire-made CONVRTR.

Depends on the operating environment. For a single operator who doesn’t need to worry about multiple transmitters interfering with one another, you don’t need multiple frequencies. The TVD stuff works just fine there, and saves you a fair amount of pennies over the Convertr. Also, if you use the receiver in something like a trailing car or dummy diesel unit where it would be plugged into different locomotives, there’s a distinct advantage to not having to program any kind of DCC address on the receiver itself as you would have to do on the Convertr. Nothing against the convertr; I use it as well. “Play each product to its strength” has always been my philosophy. I’d be far more inclined to use the Convertr on locos I do on my dad’s railroad because we run with multiple operators on that railroad, and each loco runs on its own unique Airwire channel. We’re never running more than 17 locos on the line at once, so frequency overlap is rare. That, and with the T-5000 throttles, we can dial back the transmitter power in those instances if need be.

On the revolution DCC system, it is available for sale, and I have used it, so I can speak to it’s availability and function.

Please do. Your web page on the Revo DCC is blank. How do you like it? Once programmed, how does it compare to the non-DCC Revolution in terms of controlling the trains? Speed matching, consisting–same or different? On decoders such as QSI and Phoenix which offer a “short” and “long” whistle that changes depending on how quickly you press the F2 function button, does the Revolution DCC controller respond quick enough for the “short” whistle? I’ve heard pretty much nothing from anyone using this stuff, so I don’t even have 2nd-hand info to pass along to folks.

Want Michael to have the latest and accurate information, and again since you mentioned motor control, which is only on the G2/G3, it gave somewhat of a negative to the AirWire, as you did not mention that you have no such issues with the AirWire CONVRTR and a modern motor control system in any of the fine DCC units you can use.

I’m confused as to how you think I’ve spoken negatively of the Airwire G2 and G3 boards, but you’ve misunderstood me once or twice in the past. :wink: There’s nothing wrong with the Airwire/Phoenix combination, but–as you and I agree–the latest generation of DCC decoders where the sound is integrated with the motor runs circles it in terms of auditory realism. (And the working brake function is a delight as well, for me at least.)

p.s. yes I saw what Martin did to interface the proto-throttle, although the protothrottle interfaces to my DCC system directly without any extra modifications…

If I’m understanding what he’s doing, he’s not modifying anything, either. He’s just building alternative receivers for different environments (Bluetooth and Airwire-compatible outputs), adding to the receivers which ProtoThrottle sells to integrate with conventional DCC systems. Cool stuff to be sure, but I’m not in the mood to spend $500 for a controller, no matter how cool. Maybe if I were more of a diesel guy.

Later,

K

Jeeze Kevin, you just have to have the last word and battle, give it a rest. Voluminous explanations justifying your missing information is not helpful. I’m not going to come back and rebut the flaws in your rebuttal.

I guess I have to add “shut up Kevin” to my avatar…

And so it begins.

Nah, Chris, no point. I’ve written about my experiences and how I use the various products being discussed in differing environments. If Greg wants to consider that “flawed,” that’s his thing. But please don’t tell my trains. They may stop working. (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

Later,

K

Michael, check out Martin’s post: https://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/29670/-/view/post_id/388896

Saves $100 over using the CONVRTR… so $30 plus the DCC decoder of your choice.

If I was AirWire, I would jump on this.

Greg

Reading all this with interest. Someone describe for me how easy for a complete noob like me to install either Airwire or a Revo in a USA locomotive (GP 38) . I have read that it is a fairly straightforward plug in for Airwire , but how much cutting and soldering is needed to plug in a Revo to my loco? And how much cutting and splicing is needed to add sound?

Pete, you might want to start your own thread on this, I have a couple of ways to do this easily and have lots of info and web pages on it.

In deference to Michael who is really trying to get some complete information here, and I also really don’t want to come back to this thread either.

Greg

Pete,

Airwire’s drop in decoder makes it really easy to install. As far as the Revo, the only one I installed really wasn’t that complicated, but it was on a Bachmann rail truck so there was only one motor. The only sound one I can comment on is Phoenix to Airwire. That was pretty straight forward with the biggest “cut and splice” being getting power to the board itself, and hooking up a chuff sensor or speed trigger.

Chris