Large Scale Central

A modest proposal

General Discussion
#41

I will relate a local example of ‘offshoring’. We have a local aluminium casting foundry that had been in business for sixty plus years. Around 2005, Harley-Davidson approached the South Australian government and expressed interest in setting up a wheel casting foundry here in Australia. The South Australian governemnt outlayed $8 million dollars and purchased the existing foundry. Harley-Davidson provided the necessary tooling to cast their motorcycle wheels. For some years this was the only foundry in the world for H-D, casting every alloy wheel fitted to H-D motorcycles. The foundry won many awards of excellence from overseas organisations for the quality of their work.

Not happy, H-D approached a Chinese foundry last year and have now announced that production will move to China this year (2012), leaving several hundred experienced foundry workers on the dole queue and our governemnt left handling an expensive foundry with no client. For years H-D praised the wheels coming out of the Australian foundry, however, the bottom line was lowest production dollars. Maybe quality is not that important anymore?

#42

Back to the original question…Would you pay another 20%?

Yes…But I know many would not. The forums are filled with comments like “Glad I have all I want 'cause I ain’t paying that”…and “Newcomers are staying away due to the high cost”…and we can’t forget “Good luck selling it at that price, what is Bachmann/Aristo/USA/LGB thinking!”

We as a group are like most people, we complain about quality when the cost is cheap and we complain about price no matter if it’s cheap or not. For the record, I’m not preaching…I do my share of “You want how much for that”???

#43

I would, for many things at least. The real question might be, would 20% cover it? Would the PARTS the “US manufacturer” uses also be of US manufacture?

Interestingly, I just bought 144 feet of AML track which I believe to be made right here in beautiful California, and it was the least expensive option!

#44

As is understand it, AML is part of Accucraft. Accucraft is Chinese owned.
I cannot for one minute believe that Accucraft would be making the track in the USA and not China.
Can someone prove me wrong? Please???

#45

All my AML track boxes say “Made in China” in micro-print.

I will add they are one of the lesser known track makers with some of the best prices around. Large number of sectional radii. I like the look as there is no obvious “gap” between sections as with other brands (ties are equally spaced) but you do need to use rail clamps as the factory joiners are worthless.

#46

And I will add that my AMS 250 flex (Accucraft) is made in China as well.

#47

Would I pay more for American made goods? Yes, if the quality of the American made goods warrant the additional dollars.

My wife an I married in 1973. She owned a 1972 Toyota Corolla she purchased new. In the course of 93,000 miles, I put two transmissions, a valve job, timing chain, sprockets and cam shaft, and it was getting ready for another valve job and transmission. My dad was an auto mechanic, so I knew how to maintain a vehicle. After that experience I swore I would never own another Toyota.

Here comes 2007 (later in the year) and the Dodge Intrepid my wife loved self destructed. We looked for about 6 weeks for something American made. NOT!! Everything was made outsourced in one way or another. After considerable research along the way, her new car is a Toyota Camery Hybrid. Why you might ask?? Because it was the best VALUE! Sterling service and durability records, no more money than the Ford (made in Mexico) I would have preferred, and at least it was assembled here in Kentucky. Since purchasing our Camery, we have had a few issues (none to do with the gas pedal), but Toyota has been again stellar in their service. I wish Ford was even close with my '96 pickup.

I view the hobby in the same light. What am I getting for my dollar. For all the griping, Bachmann is still a fair value for what you pay. Hartland is a bit higher priced, but the quality is also there. I would love to see several of my favorite locos done by one manufacturer or another, but they are far from being the high popularity types, so I really don’t expect that.

There are two basic premises in retail. One, sell at a lower margin and sell a lot of it, or two, sell at a high margin and sell less. There is always a break point somewhere that breaks each option. Accucraft builds very high quality models at a very high price and does not sell near as many of the same/similar locomotive ad Bachmann whose premise is smaller margin on higher volume. Accucraft would go broke real quick trying to compete dollar for dollar with Bachmann, and as of now, Bachmann does not hold a candle to the quality of Accucraft.

I don’t think it really matters any more where a product is manufactured. I really, at least for me, is the perceived value of what am I getting for my dollar.

My tuppence worth.

Bob C.

#48

Bob, your Camery is judged to be one of the most “American” cars available due to its high content of American made parts and assembly. My Dodge Journey is rated as one of the least “American” cars. I bought it for its value too.

#49

Hmm, My 2010 Ford F-150 was made in Dearborn, Michigan. I also have 2012 Ford Explorer but I’m not sure where it was made (Mexico or US). I have to say that I have had great service and not a single problem with either vehicle, mind you the Explorer is only 4 months old.

To add to what I said before. The prices of Chinese goods are on the rise. I predict it wont be too long before an American made product can compete with the prices of a Chinese product.

I have Sunset Valley track. I assumed it was made in the USA. I never actually checked.

#50

Of course, the desire to have our toys made in the USA (or any Western Country currently dependent on China), may be Pie in the Sky anyway.
It depends on who actually owns the tooling.

You only have to see what happened with one major Company when they pulled their tooling out of China. Some of the tooling was cloned to produce cheap knock offs.
Can you imagine what would happen if, say AristoCraft or USAT pulled out of China? I wonder how long the it would take to flood the market with cheap knock offs.

It is safe bet that Kader Industrial, the Chinese parent of Bachmann, owns all the Bachmann tooling. So forget about Bachmann moving production out of China. Unless of course it was to some other low cost country.

The only way any Western country could start producing in house again is with local import protection rules which would fly in the face of “Free Trade” and start an almighty trade war.

#51

Well I had a Suzuki Samurai that I drove for 10 years and 170K miles until the valve head finally burned out. I should have kept it but I didn’t.
My current Scion is over 110K and I need to hold onto it for another couple years then well see if I can swing the Abarth 500

:wink: Now back to your regularly scheduled argument.

#52

OK, since the discussion has moved to cars… I’ve pretty much never owned anything but GM cars. The last three were bought new. A '95 Pontiac Sunfire that I sold after 18 months and 75K miles with no issues. A '97 Pontiac Grand Prix which I put over 200K on before the transmission started to act up. I replaced that with the '03 Envoy I’m still driving with 140K on it. The Envoy has been the most troublesome of the three, but not in the first 100K. I had some water issues with the coil packs that drove me nuts for about 6 months and it likes to eat alternators. Other than that, I’ve been pretty happy with it. I’d still buy GM if I could afford to.

#53

I’m a GM guy too.
Had a 74 Pontiac Catalina I bought used with almost 100,000 miles. Put over 500,000 more miles on it.
Never had a serious problem with it. Still running good when I sold it. Saw it two years later, still chugging along.

Bought a 86 Chevy Caprice used. Lord knows how many miles it had, as it was a Houston Taxi for 4 years.
Put over 500,000 more miles on it. I did have to put a transmission in it about a month after I bought it.
But it was still going strong when I sold the car.

The wife’s current Buick was built by Cadillac in Detroit. Over 140,000 miles and runs and drives like new.
Had to replace the water pump a couple of months ago. Seats 6 and gets 26 mpg city, and 32 mpg highway.
We’ve had it almost 6 years, and will keep it as long as we can since GM dropped the model.

Lot’s of other Chevys, Pontiacs and Buicks over the years. Never a bad one in the bunch.
Ralph

#54

I’ve had friends who have owned Acura’s, BMW’s, Chevy’s, Ford’s, Jag’s, Toyota’s, etc. Everyone of them has had great ones and pieces of junk. Quality of a new car is all but taken for granted these days. It’s expected and usually delivered no matter the brand.

I have purchased 14 new cars since 1990, one “lemon” in the group and even then it was the fault of the dealer who could not repair it correctly.

#55

Don’t know whether its true or not…but I read somewhere that goods could be imported in component parts to the USA (LGB? etc for instance)…, assembled in the USA… and then could be said to be Made in USA.

Anyone?

#56
Ross Mansell said:
Don't know whether its true or not..but I read somewhere that goods could be imported in component parts to the USA (LGB? etc for instance)...., assembled in the USA...... and then could be said to be Made in USA.

Anyone?


I believe there is a percentage requirement for the “Made in USA” label.
We do see some goods that are labeled " Assembled in USA".
The new cars all have labels now that state what percentage is foreign and what percentage is domestic.
Ralph

#57

I’d rather have one really solid performing locomotive than five or six ‘iffy’ ones. It’s taken me some time to realize that.

That means paying a higher price, maybe a really high price, to get a model that has been well engineered, built, and quality tested. That’s not a bad bargain because the other choice is to buy a cheap model - and Oh boy, have I done that a few times - and then spend a lot of time at the workbench trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

Now, if I were willing to pay a high price for fewer really well-made models, that might support a solid home-based small manufacturing sector. But the kind of workmanship I have in mind cannot be had for “Made in China” prices.

To the extent that I have been drawn into buying cheap imported crap, the whole situation is my fault. I have begun to change my ways.

#58

I’m going to try to get a hold of Phil Jensen ( Hartland Locomotive Works) for his take on this. I don’t own any of his stuff but from those that do say the running quality of them are some of the best. If Phil can do it and have the reliability that he does, then I think other manufacturer can do it I do know that that he uses the same molds for a lot of his different products. The few time that I got to sit down and talk to him, the biggest expense for him is getting dies made.

Rodney

#59
Rodney Edington said:
I'm going to try to get a hold of Phil Jensen ( Hartland Locomotive Works) for his take on this. I don't own any of his stuff but from those that do say the running quality of them are some of the best. If Phil can do it and have the reliability that he does, then I think other manufacturer can do it I do know that that he uses the same molds for a lot of his different products. The few time that I got to sit down and talk to him, the biggest expense for him is getting dies made.

Rodney


My most solid performers are all Hartlands or LGBs. The detail isn’t there in the Hartland models I own, but they’re solid enough that I can let a young kids mess with them, and I really like that. My favourite is a Hartland 0-4-0 switcher w tender, which I take to shows for kids to run because she’s so reliable. I added pickups to the tender, BTW. In the Garden the ten-foot rule applies and details don’t matter. If I want details I can always add them myself. If I could make one recommendation to the company, it’d be to make disassembly more visible and obvious for us hobbyists. (I had a lot of trouble figuring out how to get inside one of the Macks.)

I really like Hartland products; I believe they’ve concentrated on the right things - solid performance and construction, never mind fragile details. And the best part is they’re proudly made in the good ole USA. :smiley:

Again, the usual disclaimers apply.

#60

The most solid performers I have are a couple of imported Bachmann’s with made in USA Barry’s drives.
Bullet proof!
I have an imported Bachmann K-27 with a USA Rodney’s drive, but haven’t had it out yet. It will get the heck
ran out of it this year.