Ken Brunt said:I don't excuse the anarchy and chaos. As usual, a small percentage of people cause a large percentage of the problems. The two events are similar but far from identical. The people of the Midwest are to be commended. The discussion of welfare states and per capita income was the result of Mike's post on farm subsidies to Iowa. Ralph
My point being what difference does it make how much welfare a state receives from the government when in two separate but almost identical crises', chaos and anarchy prevail in one instance and a thousand miles away, it's the complete opposite?
“Oh my name it is nothin’
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I’s taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.”
Sorta thing…
I’m a midwesterner and proud of it.
Ken Brunt said:A Huricane and weeks of rain are similar?????? You mean within 24 hours the mississippi rose over flood levels??, I don't think that's what happened,, The flooding in the midwest is an ongoing event because of continued rainfall. People have been notified and evacuated well in advance.
My point being what difference does it make how much welfare a state receives from the government when in two separate but almost identical crises', chaos and anarchy prevail in one instance and a thousand miles away, it's the complete opposite?
Katrina happened much faster, there was NO evacuation plans for the poor, there was nothing, not even the police stayed in place, leaving people to fend for themselves.
I guarantee you that if a major storm event hits New York, there’s devestation everywhere, stores are closed,and my kids hungry, I’m going “shopping” for food anywhere I can get it!!. Now as for tv’s and other crap - now that’s a different story and I see the point there that your trying to make.
Just a lot differnt situation then your making it out to be, being poor, watching the police flee for their lives, feeling hopeless, of course anarchy would happen. That’s not what has happened in the midwest!
Ummmm, Mississippi got hit by the same storm, in the same intensity, and there was not the chaos exhibited by Louisiana. And, Mississippi is a poorer state.
By all accounts, Nawleans cops have always been pretty hopeless, a legacy of Huey Long, I suppose.
Mark Dash said:Ken Brunt said:A Huricane and weeks of rain are similar?????? You mean within 24 hours the mississippi rose over flood levels??, I don't think that's what happened,, The flooding in the midwest is an ongoing event because of continued rainfall. People have been notified and evacuated well in advance.
My point being what difference does it make how much welfare a state receives from the government when in two separate but almost identical crises', chaos and anarchy prevail in one instance and a thousand miles away, it's the complete opposite?Katrina happened much faster, there was NO evacuation plans for the poor, there was nothing, not even the police stayed in place, leaving people to fend for themselves.
I guarantee you that if a major storm event hits New York, there’s devestation everywhere, stores are closed,and my kids hungry, I’m going “shopping” for food anywhere I can get it!!. Now as for tv’s and other crap - now that’s a different story and I see the point there that your trying to make.
Just a lot differnt situation then your making it out to be, being poor, watching the police flee for their lives, feeling hopeless, of course anarchy would happen. That’s not what has happened in the midwest!
That’s funny. I was watching the same storm on the news for a week before it hit New Orleans. Like all major cities along the coast, there are major highways set up as evacuation routes. Whether your common sense prevails and you use them, is a decision for the individual.
Southeastern PA gets hit by hurricanes at least once a year. Been through many of them. Never had any hit so suddenly that I couldn’t make some plans for “just in case”. Though not as intense as a coastal hurricane, they do create havoc. I’ve gone from 1hour to 6 days without power. Neighbors band together and you make do with what you have. Since I worked for the phone company at the time, we were pretty busy at work getting things restored. Never once in my 58 years around here I have noticed any chaos during a hurricane(or a major snowstorm, for that matter). Course nobody sits around waiting for the government to do anything either.
I grew up in southeastern pa and don’t remember ever seeing a hurricane on the scale of Katrina.
Never said they did…
Ken Brunt said:Most poor people in urban areas have no car. No car, no money. How do you evacuate ? I've lived on the Gulf Coast and the East Coast. I evacuated many times. But I was fortunate enough to have the means to do so. Ralph
That's funny. I was watching the same storm on the news for a week before it hit New Orleans. Like all major cities along the coast, there are major highways set up as evacuation routes. Whether your common sense prevails and you use them, is a decision for the individual.
Agree with Ralph. I have relatives to go to who have enough room. I can afford a hotel. Poor people have fewer resources–relatives are less likely to be willing able, or may be nearby and in the same boat, hotels out of the question, no car or car not working etc. Evacuate to where?
Plus nearby jurisdictions were actively keeping people from the 9th ward out.
Still doesn’t justify their behavior.
Ken Brunt said:You are correct. It certainly doesn't. But lets not condemn the entire population of New Orleans for the acts of some. Ralph
Still doesn't justify their behavior.
It doesn’t justify bad behavior, but it makes it more explicable–certainly more explicable. Certainly more explicable than declaring people in the midwest have character and people in NO don’t.
There’s really no point in simply denouncing looters–nobody here is pro-looting, or wants to defend looting. Denouncing other people’s bad behavior makes me feel better, but it does nothing at all to stop the bad behavior.
If a society want stop stop looting it has to understand why it takes place, and I’d argue that centuries–literally–of systematic exclusion from the benefits of civil society will have an effect. Centuries of systematic poverty, of segregation, disenfranshisment–they matter. So build a society where more people are stakeholders, where people see the rule of law as working to their advantage.
36 years ago several small communities in North Central PA, were devastated by flood water from Hurricane Agnes when the waters of the Susqhehanna River overflowed it’s banks and roared through the towns. Flood waters reached the second story of 2 story homes. Towns along the Delaware and Schuykill Rivers suffered somewhat the same fate. Backed up behind the Conowingo Dam in Maryland were mobile homes, coffins, cars, trees, cows and all kinds of flotsam. There was talk of evacuating down stream towns and blowing the dam before before it gave way from the pressure. There was no FEMA, no evacuation plans, no disaster plans, no evacuation routes out of town, most people stayed and some lost their lives. There was no looting, no chaos in the streets, no crying for the government to help out, no finger-pointing, no blame cast on others. People banded together and pitched in to help each other. People with boats rescued other stranded people, people with room put up others, food was shared and brought in from other places. No phones, no electric, no gas, no water. Volunteers began arriving to help clean up the mess. I worked up there for 2 months restoring phone service and never left the one spot I was working at. Eventually it was declared a “Disaster Area” and government help started coming in. And Sean Penn never showed up either…
No one was condemning the entire population of New Orleans, just those causing the mayhem.
Ralph Berg said:With the 500 school buses that were allowed to be flooded. On AMTRAK... Need I go on? Those and other choices were available, and were not used because the "authorities" did not think of it.Ken Brunt said:Most poor people in urban areas have no car. No car, no money. How do you evacuate ? SNIP Ralph
That's funny. I was watching the same storm on the news for a week before it hit New Orleans. Like all major cities along the coast, there are major highways set up as evacuation routes. Whether your common sense prevails and you use them, is a decision for the individual.
People in New Orleans also helped each other.
People from outside New Orleans who tried to help were turned away.
People who tried to walk out of New Orleans were turned back at gunpoint by the law.
A combination of many errors beginning long before the Hurricane and continuing afterward to create “The Perfect Storm”.
Ralph
Steve Featherkile said:That's right. The local government let them down. I doubt "did not think of it" was the problem. The Mayor probably didn't want to spend the money or didn't care. How else do you explain the so called "shelter"(Superdome) had no food or water. Like I said, the mistakes started well before the Hurricane and continued long after. RalphRalph Berg said:With the 500 school buses that were allowed to be flooded. On AMTRAK... Need I go on? Those and other choices were available, and were not used because the "authorities" did not think of it.Ken Brunt said:Most poor people in urban areas have no car. No car, no money. How do you evacuate ? SNIP Ralph
That's funny. I was watching the same storm on the news for a week before it hit New Orleans. Like all major cities along the coast, there are major highways set up as evacuation routes. Whether your common sense prevails and you use them, is a decision for the individual.
That we agree on…