Large Scale Central

A Challenging Modeling Idea

Modeling
#21

I opened the original posted pic in Photoshop. Made some adjustment (magic), Enlarged it for detail. And noticed several more things.

The engine on track 2, has no side rods. All the engines are not in the round house, but out in front of it, The wall that is standing is the front wall. Probably the only non wood wall in the place. The engine on the turntable has some unusual trucks on the tender, some kind that I have never seen before. Also it has running boards the entire length of the engine, even along the cab. With the rear driver setting that far back, and what appears to be a notched cab to fit over the driver, there may have not been a front door, that we are so used to. So the running board allowed for access from the cab with getting to the ground.

After adjusting the image. A couple of observations. It appears to me that almost all the people in the pic are Black, and appear to be fairly young. Which would make sense to me, as all the young men in the South by that time of the war, were in the Army, and not lounging around. My guess is that they were there cause that was where they worked before and during the war, and literally had no place to go. I guess they were hoping to get their jobs back before to long.

The two engines setting in the rear without steps or cowcatchers, Appears to be to be older style engines, as the cylinders set quite high up on the smoke box, and the main rods are angled downwards.

There appears to be three sets of tracks running in the background, and at least two more boxcars in the rear of the yard, and maybe a couple more in the background along the tracks.

Also what you think is a wire, I believe is a crack in the glass Negative.

The letters on the side of the tender are “A&WPTRR”.

Joe, Where did the original come from, and is there possibly a larger file size to work from?

#22

A & W Pt RR is definetely the Atlanta & West Point RR, the t in the pic is smaller font than the others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_and_West_Point_Railroad

The line survived the civil war and lasted into the 20th century eventually merging with the Seaboard and eventually CSX, its lines are still in use today.

#23

Given the photography equipment of the day the photo had to be staged else any movement by the men would be blurry. Staged yes but could it be considered Propaganda? Maybe the photo was taken well after Sherman did his thing and the photo could have been taken to distribute to the wealthy to help raise funds to rebuild… or it was a taunt to the North “look at us we are still in business” (even though our locos don’t really work)
Interesting about that “cable” which I agree is more like a crack in the glass negative since it extends to the furthest building. A telegraph wire would have support here and there.
The 2 tracks we can see look to be inspection pits either that or the wood was burnt off them but then again I don’t really see much charring of wood or stone in the photo?
At the bottom of the cable crack what is that? It looks to be sitting crooked on the tracks? Could it be one of those cool civil war flat car mounted mortars?
In the distance looks to be a few more of those open boxcars and a square water tower.
Small boilers and giant funky stacks . Neat photo.

#24

Dave Taylor said:

Joe, Where did the original come from, and is there possibly a larger file size to work from?

Dave the original came from a Matthew Brady photo from The National Archives and Records Administration

#25

Dave Taylor said:

I opened the original posted pic in Photoshop.

Also what you think is a wire, I believe is a crack in the glass Negative.

Dave

I think it might be a Photoshop or a very propaganda “ish” attempt at what?

However …I do like that old steam stuff that used to blow up on it’s own before the civil war !

#26

Dave Taylor said:

I opened the original posted pic in Photoshop. Made some adjustment (magic), Enlarged it for detail. And noticed several more things.

The engine on track 2, has no side rods. All the engines are not in the round house, but out in front of it, The wall that is standing is the front wall. Probably the only non wood wall in the place. The engine on the turntable has some unusual trucks on the tender, some kind that I have never seen before. Also it has running boards the entire length of the engine, even along the cab. With the rear driver setting that far back, and what appears to be a notched cab to fit over the driver, there may have not been a front door, that we are so used to. So the running board allowed for access from the cab with getting to the ground.

Dave I really have to disagree with you here, as I see all the locomotives as being in the roundhouse and the wall you see as the outside wall. Even the turntable is/was inside the roundhouse.

#27

Hi Boomer:

I like the smokestack on the loco sitting on the turntable, a Radeley Hunter stack.

The other stacks are of too small a diameter a the top. Just not the same look.

The running boards of loco on the turntable are of the same design as the General locomotive during the Great Locomotive Chase. The running boards of the General locomotive where changed to the present design following the Civil War. The General locomotive became a much more attractive loco following the running boards redesign.

Given that Bachmann has entered 1:32 scale, I am hoping that Lee Riley will finally design a 1:32 model of the V&T Genoa and Reno locomotives. Possibly the frame and valve gear of the 1:20.3 narrow gauge loco could be used for the 1:32 standard gauge V&T Genoa loco.

Norman

#28

There’s a guy on the Railroad Line forums who is modeling the Civil War era in O scale, and doing museum quality work. Here’s one of his pics:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gNbYWhZjOtY/T5Tgrjo8SSI/AAAAAAAADSo/Nl3QSyfNmeI/s1000/IMG_9341.JPG)

You can follow the whole thread here:

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27774&whichpage=1

#29

I guess that the loco is from SMT ( or something similar to that ) . They make brass O Gauge locos of Civil War era and some V&T locos. They even make a scale operating switch stand for the proper era stub switches ( no points ).

Just what I had wanted Bachmann to make: standard gauge V&T 4-4-0 locos .

Norman

#30

Todd, Sorry no mortar!, On My enhanced view I can clearly see that there is a slit on the side that I can see thru, and there are 6 equally spaced holes around the rim, like a bolt pattern. All the tracks have a bit of a pit to them, it appears to me to only be about 2 feet deep though. No ties are visible on any of the tracks leading up to the turntable, and my best guess is they were used to store hot locos and used like ash pits. I’m not that up on old time opps.

Dave, I find no evidence of any support system to hold up what would have to be at least a 100ft span to have the turntable inside. A wooden structure that size, with a whole bunch of Hot locos inside, Wood burners at that, that are noted for sparks, OTOH, there isn’t much wood anywhere except on the turntable.

#31

Boomer,

The photo you posted is not of the same roundhouse and not by Brady. My research says it was taken by Geo. Barnard. There is also some sources that say that Barnard took the photo I posted and not Brady. This is getting very confusing and my head hurts!

#32

Curious as to why your information is correct, Joe, and the information of the National Archives is not.

#33

Dave, you may see no evidence of a roof support system, but I see no evidence of doors in the standing wall section, only window openings. And the drop off of terrain just behind the wall says no evidence of a floor ever being there.

Joe, I could be wrong, but with the, same ? bell tower ?, in the background of the pic in almost the same relation to the roundhouse( taking the two different camera locations) I tend to agree with Boomer on it being of before the destruction, which still puts the turntable within the confines of the roundhouse.

#34

http://archives.nd.edu/research/exhibits/barnard/bbio.html

above link: Biography of Geo. Barnard, the official photographer for Gen. W.T. Sherman. He was in Atlanta with Sherman in 1864.

This roundhouse may be the same one (before and after) since I have seen it referred to as the ENGINE HOUSE & MACHINE SHOPS OF THE WESTERN & ATLANTIC RAILROAD Atlanta GA and the Chattanooga RR roundhouse. Very confusing.

#35

There are two elements in the before and after picture that easily identify it as the same structure from a different angle and a later time. First, notice the domed building in the background of both shots. Second notice the architectural detail of the stonework on the outside wall.

Fun to look at these old shots and take in all the detail.

#36

Boomer K. said:

Here is the picture re-sized so everything is visible.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/monkeycircus/Atlantaroundhouse1864.jpg)

How can you not love those big old ugly stacks?

To bad this era is so under modeled. Anybody following this thread modeling in the 1860s? If so please post some pics.

:slight_smile:

Boomer

Boomer,

I got a date for this picture. It was taken in 1866. They had a chance to clean it up for about 2 years.

#37

Boomer K. said:

A pre-destruction view. Clearly the turntable was not covered but it does support the idea that the standing wall section was part of the exterior wall.

(http://railroads.unl.edu/documents/jpeg/medium/rail.gen.0118.jpg)

The Roundhouse is quite large. The wall that remains would have to have been an interior wall.
Interesting that I see no track running to the exterior door of the roundhouse.
Buildings on the far side would block access. This must of been a “construction” photo prior to cutting the line in.
Ralph

#38

I disagree that the remaining wall is the interior. In the “after” photo look at the detail on both sides of the wall, then look at the detail on the outside of the after picture. No reason to add the fancy vertical details on the interior that won’t be seen as much. In the “after” picture the side toward the locos is plain and the “outside” is detailed.

EDIT to bring over the pictures.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/monkeycircus/Atlantaroundhouse1864.jpg)

(http://railroads.unl.edu/documents/jpeg/medium/rail.gen.0118.jpg)

#39

Why would you not use the same stonework on the interior wall?
Look at the distance across the open roof.
There is no way that is the exterior wall.
Look at the size of the turntable. Imagine it in the structure of the “before” photo.
The turntable is not large enough to fill the open space. The locomotive with tender is hanging out the door in the “after” photo because there is insufficient space between the turntable and the wall.
Ralph

#40

Why wouldn’t you use the same stone work detail on two DIFFERENT roundhouses?

I did some searching and came up with this hand drawn map of the Atlanta area in 1861-65 and it shows two roundhouses. One huge one and one smaller one.

Here’s the link http://teva.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15138coll2/id/36/rec/4

and here is the enlarged section…

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/sparkyjoe/_forumfiles/Atlanta-map-1861-65.jpg)