Large Scale Central

where is Largescale headed?

Devon Sinsley said:

snip…

I look at it like many of my other very expensive hobbies there is always going to be an expensive one time outlay of cash to get you rolling. Snip… So Yes track is expensive but it you send the once time outlay of cash and get the best foundation (track) you can then you can build from there. For some that may be a small loop others might be able to build an empire. The point is the price of track should be expected and considered the start up cost.

Devon, I agree, that’s is how I approached my railroad, and that is what I tell others who are getting into the hobby, no matter what scale they are. Bad track equals a bad layout, frustration, and finding another hobby. Good track (a good foundation) will last the lifetime of the layout (at least indoors) and can be used again on the next one. So, I don’t see it so much as a cost, as I do an investment. I spend the money up front, and I get years of enjoyment from it.

I know I am on one end of a spectrum in that I love the building as much or more than anything. So for me the hobby will always be alive even if I am the only one left.

Yup, mee too. I am builder and train watcher. So I have enough to keep me going for many years, even if all of the manufacturers were to dry up and blow away tomorrow. But, as I said in my other post, I don’t see that happening.

I think large scale will always be around. I think we are just stuck in a train depression and things will bounce back. I also think us Americans are spoiled. We want the biggest, best of everything and if we cant have it, then we dont want anything. What is it that attracts us to this hobby in the first place? Is it the Garden aspect, building, running trains, socializing or operations? Why do we have the mentality of I want a layout consisting of 1000ft of track with 20ft dia curves but I cant afford the track right now to do it. Why cant we just start small with 50ft of track and expand as you get money. Why cant we be happy running a small Mack engine on 50ft of track. You still have the Garden aspect, your still running trains, doing operations etc… Maybe Im different and I just like to create scenes in the Garden and seeing trains running through it. Dont get me wrong I would rather see a climax running but if my funds said I can only afford a Mack engine for now, then Id be happy with that. Its still a train. Go back to the days when I first started and look at me today. I just wanted to have a garden layout but had limited funds. I made it happen.

The UK market seems to be doing well. Could it be because they run smaller layouts and trains? In some ways we got spoiled with all the offerings in the last decade. What did people do before Aristocraft and Bachmann? Kalamazoo was the first to produce an American based engine how many years ago. What did we do before that. I think we got spoiled, we need to go back to what a hobby is really about, building what you want rather then buying something already made. I had no skills getting into the hobby but I learned. Building your own things will cut cost.

I hear people say that they are buying all the engines and cars but have no track for a layout because of price. Why not buy the track first, even if it means less engines and rolling stock. Like a few said track is a one time deal. Start out small, why wait years to build one large layout when you can start small, get something running. I have seen too many people try this and never get anything running and then get out of the hobby. I started small, I have kids, job etc… if I could get a layout done in a few months anyone can do it. Its how bad do you want it.

I also think Ebay etc… has not helped manufacturers. Why buy from a dealer when you can get a deal on ebay. Its a good for us but then dont complain when people go out of business. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

Topic: where is Largescale headed?

I don’t know but where ever it goes I’m gonna follow it.

David Russell said:

Topic: where is Largescale headed?

I don’t know but where ever it goes I’m gonna follow it.

Looks like we got a new member. Welcome aboard

Can I follow you?

Shawn Viggiano said:

David Russell said:

Topic: where is Largescale headed?

I don’t know but where ever it goes I’m gonna follow it.

Looks like we got a new member. Welcome aboard

Can I follow you?

Me too!

Looks to me that large scale is in a slow down for the last few years. The future, more small manufactures like BBT. If the big companies wont produce new product, people will build it themselves. Your going to see a lot more scratch building, bashing and building. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Chuck

The biggest problem with saying we can scratchbuild everything is that implies that there is a sufficient supply of things like motor blocks, driver wheels, and associated kitbashing parts. Believe me when I say, there isn’t much.

I know, I’ve looked, and searched, and aside from cannibalizing older used stuff (which is getting increasingly more expensive as everyone thinks that because its large scale its worth its weight in Myrrh) there very little available on the market.

Here is whats out there

Bachmann:

From the website:

Annie blocks, supply and quality level varies.

Lil Big Haulers, but you have to remove a serious amount of plastic for a clean block

Trolley blocks, supply varies with Bachmann

Used drives via Ebay, quality and reliability will vary greatly depending on type and prior use.

Aristo:

Nothing but cannibalized drive blocks from older models, quality and reliability will vary greatly depending on prior use.

USA:

New GP blocks on Ebay

HLW:

Mack blocks

Goose drive cannibalized from the model

Some drives might be available via direct from HLW

Piko:

0-6-0 replacement blocks

BB replacement blocks

Maybe I’m missing some, but that’s kinda it

Its very limited as to what you build from some of these blocks, your not going to be able to build anything big like a Northern from that lot. Also if a certain Aristo or Bachmann drive block was crap back when new, a used one is only going to be that much less reliable.

I used to do several kitbashes and scratchbuilt engines a few years ago, I dont do much anymore because it’s hard to get ahold of something as simple as a drive block. Its frustrating that large scale electric seems to have retracted so much on itself.

I look at the slow decline from a slightly different view.

I didn’t start in LS (G) until 1985 with the purchase of a LGB Mogul (2018 red and green) and half a dozen of the D&RGW coaches and combine. AND this was at a “high-end” toy store (Toys International) and paid full price! There were no LS hobby shops around then except for Allied Trains. Bought a small MRC 6200 power pak and a oval of LGB track (at least I started with the 1600 curves!) Bill came to about $1200. But the difference in my purchase at that time was that I had the “disposable income” then to do this and we had three little kids. I felt it was do it now BEFORE the kids grow up. Why wait!

I was already deeply involved with 1-1/2 inch scale for many prior and was building a live steam locomotive and rolling stock. Same situation with THIS facet of model railroading…I had the disposable income. Yeah, we were lucky, I know that.

When LS became more popular in the late 90’s and early 2000’s, that’s when young couples with children saw these trains in gardens and magazines like Garden Railways and Big Train Shows. They were hooked and track was still relatively in-expensive. The difference was that they didn’t realize how much disposable income it takes to keep this hobby going. New “eye catching” diesels from USA and Aristo and some steam engines (LGB Mikado and Aristo’s Mikado). When the younger families decided to expand their railroads to run the diesels and 15-30 car trains, then the reality hit home. This hobby was never really meant for folks who tried to “Squeeze” a little extra out of the budget to maintain their hobby. Their eyes were bigger than their wallet. A oval of track can get “boring” pretty quick for a child. Slowly those folks dropped out of the hobby hoping that when the kids finally moved out and retirement was near, they could once again enjoy the LS hobby.

I had all kinds of grand plans for my outdoor railroad in Fn3. Always loved Colorado NG and this seemed the way to go. I live on a 1/4 acre lot in the city. But I knew I couldn’t put this on the ground because sooner or later age sets in and you can’t get down on the ground AND get back up EASILY. Even with a 1/4 acre to work with, you STILL have toi go around the pool, miss most of the trees and not pull every bush out of the ground for your ROW. I just never built the thing…just went back to 1-1/2 inch scale and run my “stuff” on a large club track at Los Angeles Live Steamers in Griffith Park.

LS MAY be back again to be as popular as it once was, but it is a niche hobby in an even smaller niche called model railroading. The cost of track is, IMHO probably the one single item depressing this hobby (besides getting parts as Vic mentioned above). When I was buying track for my NG layout, even with my disposable income in tact, I changed to battery/Airwire so I could go with aluminum code 250 and get a lot more for my dollar. Funny thing is that now I can purchase code 1000 1-1/2 scale aluminum rail with plastic ties all gauged properly to 7.5 inch gauge for nearly the same price as stainless steel track in 45mm! Somebody in the Board Rooms of the LS manufacturers had better start to “rethink” things related to track cost or the hobby will completely die off in a few years. JMHO

Sure lots of stuff has gotten expensive…

But in some respects, for the “do-it-yourselfer,” these are the best of times and things have never been cheaper, with way more stuff available.

I can now have 100 warm white LEDs, or 300 resistors, or … sent to my door for <$2, whereas warm whites didn’t even exist when I built the railroad in 1997.

I can also get adjustable voltage regulators with digital readout, and no heat generation, for ~$3.50 each whereas I couldn’t make the circuit with a simple regulator for that price back in the day. A better Meanwell can be obtained cheaper than an Aristo Ultima ever was.

I can now buy a 3-d scanner and printer, and if I spend upwards of $5K, I can get quality stuff.

None of this was even available at any price.

Cheap electronics and printers do not necessarily make a locomotive. Currently, without available drive blocks, correct sized driver wheels made of quality metal and such, even the best printers don’t help much. I see interesting things re: printers but I still have yet to see a successfully fully printed working locomotive, metal parts with printers is still complex and problematic not to mention expensive. While I have no doubt that in about 5-10 years we may be able to print a complete working model that’s as good as an Aristo or Bachmann, I shudder to think how much it will cost when the printer costs is factored in.

Maybe the future will be something akin to a model RR club, where several folks will pool their money to buy a really good quality printer and then have two or three guys who really know the programs essentially “build” models to order for members. That I could easily see that happen. I’m not so sure about any actual company like Hobby People or similar ever offering such a service, mostly due to issues of copyright and use of other peoples work getting muddled in corporate bureaucracy.

Have to agree with most of your posts on where we are going. Had the great opportunity of taking my grandson, age 2 1/2 years to the Thomas and Friends - Explore the Rails developed by the Minnesota Children’s Museum which features an enormous hands-on Island of Sodor toy railroad. There must have been 20 toddlers playing around it having great fun and everyone seemed to get along just fine. The future generations are out there just give them time. This article on the hobby in general was in yesterdays Wall Street Journal, keep on tracking!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/end-of-the-line-for-model-trains-aging-hobbyists-trundle-on-1455157546

Shawn Viggiano said:

I think large scale will always be around. I think we are just stuck in a train depression and things will bounce back. I also think us Americans are spoiled. We want the biggest, best of everything and if we cant have it, then we dont want anything. What is it that attracts us to this hobby in the first place? Is it the Garden aspect, building, running trains, socializing or operations? Why do we have the mentality of I want a layout consisting of 1000ft of track with 20ft dia curves but I cant afford the track right now to do it. Why cant we just start small with 50ft of track and expand as you get money. Why cant we be happy running a small Mack engine on 50ft of track. You still have the Garden aspect, your still running trains, doing operations etc… Maybe Im different and I just like to create scenes in the Garden and seeing trains running through it. Dont get me wrong I would rather see a climax running but if my funds said I can only afford a Mack engine for now, then Id be happy with that. Its still a train. Go back to the days when I first started and look at me today. I just wanted to have a garden layout but had limited funds. I made it happen.

The UK market seems to be doing well. Could it be because they run smaller layouts and trains? In some ways we got spoiled with all the offerings in the last decade. What did people do before Aristocraft and Bachmann? Kalamazoo was the first to produce an American based engine how many years ago. What did we do before that. I think we got spoiled, we need to go back to what a hobby is really about, building what you want rather then buying something already made. I had no skills getting into the hobby but I learned. Building your own things will cut cost.

I hear people say that they are buying all the engines and cars but have no track for a layout because of price. Why not buy the track first, even if it means less engines and rolling stock. Like a few said track is a one time deal. Start out small, why wait years to build one large layout when you can start small, get something running. I have seen too many people try this and never get anything running and then get out of the hobby. I started small, I have kids, job etc… if I could get a layout done in a few months anyone can do it. Its how bad do you want it.

I also think Ebay etc… has not helped manufacturers. Why buy from a dealer when you can get a deal on ebay. Its a good for us but then dont complain when people go out of business. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

Shawn, I built small, and I encourage others to build small and add on as time and money permit. I have plans for expansions, but haven’t built any of them yet. I also do not fully understand the folks who have vast collections of stuff they cannot run (in any scale) because they just don’t have track. Collectors are a different animal, and I am not talking about them. Like I said I invested in the track to build my railroad and some for repairs and a possible expansion. I am glad I did before the cost of track went north, but I would probably do the same if I was starting out now. It would just take longer to save up the money for track. Without track, good track, I don’t have a railroad, I just have a barn full of rolling stock.

When I started in Large Scale the Aust $ was close to the US$ now it at about 0.70c and that has increased all the prices eg Trucks with wheels from a reputable Ebay store, whom I have dealt with before, $28 US or $40 Aust.

Fair price for Large Scale in Australia now here comes the killer the postage is $28 US the same as the item that now makes them very expensive and I will not be buying till I can get the money.

This is just one example of why I am not buying at present and I do not think I am alone in this situation.

I have a collection of 1:20.3 plans from GR, so instead of buying RTR I will turn to scratchbuilding and I will be “modelling” some rolling stock, the only thing I will have trouble with will be the wheelsets so they will have to come later.

I am lucky to have a large block of land and my next house will have the same, as I am close to retiring I will build an elevated railway next time to get away from crawling on the ground.

But enough doom and gloom, I see large scale continuing well into the future its just that at present the economy is slow and disposable income is scarce but things will improve.

Shawn Viggiano said:

David Russell said:

Topic: where is Largescale headed?

I don’t know but where ever it goes I’m gonna follow it.

Looks like we got a new member. Welcome aboard

Can I follow you?

SURE

Just as long as that member called Rooster can’t follow us. That whack job seems to upset all the experts and knowledgeable folk in this hobby. That Rooster guy probably don’t have a foot to stand on and even pink flamingos have that!

I figured out how to edit 2 correct my punctuation and proper apostrophes but haven’t figured out how to post pictures yet.

Graeme Price said:

When I started in Large Scale the Aust $ was close to the US$ now it at about 0.70c and that has increased all the prices eg Trucks with wheels from a reputable Ebay store, whom I have dealt with before, $28 US or $40 Aust.

Fair price for Large Scale in Australia now here comes the killer the postage is $28 US the same as the item that now makes them very expensive and I will not be buying till I can get the money.

This is just one example of why I am not buying at present and I do not think I am alone in this situation.

I have a collection of 1:20.3 plans from GR, so instead of buying RTR I will turn to scratchbuilding and I will be “modelling” some rolling stock, the only thing I will have trouble with will be the wheelsets so they will have to come later.

I am lucky to have a large block of land and my next house will have the same, as I am close to retiring I will build an elevated railway next time to get away from crawling on the ground.

But enough doom and gloom, I see large scale continuing well into the future its just that at present the economy is slow and disposable income is scarce but things will improve.

Graeme, I know. I just ordered an HO locomotive from down your way. The exchange rate saved me some money, and all of that savings went to postage. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)I would hate to run the exchange rate the other way with the same postage. One gentleman, back in the mists of time, used metal pulleys for train wheels. I don’t know if he turned one of the pulley flanges off or not.

Wendell brings up a good point. Why don’t the manufacturers advertise in garden magazines ? Sometimes it takes a spark to light a fire.

This was sent to me this morning by one of Jan’s cousins. Its an opinion of the industry and the hobby. Lot’s of options these days, its called LIFE. enjoy the ride!

End of the Line for Model Trains? Aging Hobbyists Trundle On
Industry struggles to find new platforms for once popular pastime
Howard Zane has been working on the railroad for thirty years–building a massive model train set complete with 150 locomotives, thousands of feet of track and more than 6,000 figures. He’s expanded his basement twice to accommodate the train set’s ever-growing spread. Photo: Madeline Marshall/The Wall Street Journal
By
James R. Hagerty
Updated Feb. 10, 2016 10:28 p.m. ET
86 COMMENTS
For Christmas in 1960, Ron Mei got a Lionel train set. More than 55 years later, he still hasn’t found a better toy.
By creating model railroads, “you learn carpentry,” said Mr. Mei, 62 years old, who runs a motorcycle-parts business in Phoenix and spends 20 to 25 hours a week with his trains. “You learn electric. You learn painting. Kids today, they have skill in one thing—that’s a videogame or a smartphone.”
Model train
Model train
Once thought of as every boy’s dream toy, model trains have become a domain mainly for old men. At clubs devoted to the hobby, members below 60 years old are the young bucks. Some retirement homes provide model-railroading rooms for their residents.
“I’m a dinosaur,” said Howard Zane, 77, of Columbia, Md., a retired industrial designer who has expanded his basement twice to accommodate an ever-growing model railroad, now including more than 1,000 railcars. “My wife says I’m collectible.”
Mr. Zane, Mr. Mei and other enthusiasts yearn to pass their pastime on to future generations. They fear it will be shunted onto a sidetrack of toy history.
Toddlers still adore Thomas the Tank Engine, of course. Nostalgic parents still buy train sets to trundle around the Christmas tree. Yet today’s younger set generally isn’t taking up model railroading as a lifelong mission.
“If it’s not a hand-held device or something free on the Internet, it’s of very little value to them,” said Charlie Getz, 67, president of the National Model Railroad Association, which calculates that the average age of its nearly 19,000 members is 64, up from 39 in the mid-1970s.
Mr. Mei’s 26-year-old son, Tony, said he is impressed by the fine detail that goes into his father’s layout, re-creating train scenes of the mid-1950s, right down to the pigeons at the train stations and the rust streaks on box cars.
Is the younger Mr. Mei tempted to take up the hobby? “To be honest,” he said, “not really.”
Lionel LLC, a 116-year-old company now based in Concord, N.C., isn’t giving up. Instead, it is concocting trains that old-timers wouldn’t recognize. Along with its traditional train sets, mostly made in China, Lionel offers videogames, including Battle Train and City Builder 3D.
Carl Izzo, 83, has been building his current train layout since 1992.ENLARGE
Carl Izzo, 83, has been building his current train layout since 1992. Photo: James R. Hagerty/The Wall Street Journal
At the New York Toy Fair, opening Feb. 13, Lionel plans to introduce a train product called Mega Tracks, aimed at children eight years old and up. The tracks will be more like those of a roller-coaster, and the trains will be remote-controlled.
“It really won’t resemble a train,” said Howard Hitchcock, chief executive of Lionel. “They’re almost more like spacecraft, to be quite honest with you.” Plain old trains wouldn’t do: “We have to come up with things that jazz up the kids of today,” Mr. Hitchcock said.
Lionel still makes authentic trains and associated gear for serious hobbyists, who account for about 60% of sales. Owned by the private-equity firm Guggenheim Partners, Lionel doesn’t disclose financial results.
The Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum, near Pittsburgh, promotes the hobby by offering a 20-hour Model Railroading 101 course each winter for $60.
Last year, no one signed up. This year, 11 people attended the opening session. Six were over 60 years old. The youngest was 15-year-old Alex Edder, who recently earned a Boy Scout merit badge in model railroading and wanted to learn more.
Bill Humphrey, 70, a volunteer who led the class, warned newbies that brass tracks tend to oxidize and don’t conduct electricity “worth a damn.” He also stressed that the hobby isn’t just chugging along with antiquated technology: Computerized controls are common, and “you can download all these diesel sounds.”
Perhaps the most ambitious advocate for the hobby is Verryl Fosnight, 73, a real-estate investor in Sedona, Ariz. In a steel building he erected for the purpose, Mr. Fosnight is replicating a stretch of the Union Pacific railroad as it was in 1957 in Wyoming and Utah. It covers nearly 4,000 square feet.
Mr. Fosnight has a full-time employee, Allen Montgomery, to help him create his diorama. “I am the luckiest guy in Arizona,” said Mr. Montgomery, who describes himself as a “model railroad super geek.” At 41, Mr. Montgomery is younger than most such geeks but, he said, “I never felt part of my generation.” He spent days researching the freight depot at the Cheyenne train station as it looked in 1957 so he could build a replica, including “the scratches and the dings and the gouges” on the loading dock.
Once a month, Mr. Fosnight holds an open house for people who want to operate his trains. Most participants are adults, but some teenagers and children show up.
They include Steven Hill, age 11. He described Mr. Fosnight’s layout as “a little more realistic than a videogame.” Few of Steven’s friends share his enthusiasm, however. “They don’t even know how fun it is,” he said. “I try to bring it up in conversation, but they start talking about football.”
In Murrysville, Pa., Carl Izzo has been working since 1992 on a train layout that fills an 825-square-foot room in his basement. An 83-year-old retired chemist, Mr. Izzo long ago stopped trying to convert his 10 grandchildren to the cause. He knows of no children in his neighborhood who might take an interest. Nonetheless, construction proceeds.
Guiding a recent visitor through his basement, Mr. Izzo said: “What you’re looking at is the makings of a limestone pit.” He pointed to a pinewood train table, stacked with supplies and surrounded by coiling train tracks. The limestone pit would go with the coking-coal plant he already has built for his loosely historical steel town. It also includes Louie’s bar, in memory of a tavern run by one of his uncles in Dunbar, Pa.
“Right here,” he said, gesturing toward another miniature construction site, “is going to be a short stretch of water—barges—and this is the gantry crane that is going to pick up the iron ore from the barges.”
Mr. Izzo isn’t sure when he will finish but promises it will happen by 2032, when he will be 100. “At the rate I’m going,” he said, “it’s going to take that long.”
Write to James R. Hagerty at [email protected]

Too many younger parents, try to get their grandchildren interested in Model Railroading, and fail. They should be getting into the hobby for themselves, and then try to share their passion

Even if they fail, then they have a hobby that can grow with them, right into retirement.

Model Railroading as a hobby, is all of the things listed by others, but one feature that is often not recognized, is the social aspect.

The hobby brings together so many “Like-minded” people from all walks of life, so that each person’s life experiences can be enriched with the knowledge shared by the vast assortment of trades, and careers of others.

Through this hobby, I for one, have been able to enjoy friendships with people all over the World, and right here in my own back yard, to say nothing of the knowledge we have freely shared.

Modern communication technology, constructively used, has made the social contacts much easier, but the good old handshake, and the sharing of a refreshment, makes every day much better for the hobby…if we use both, we still are “Riding a Winner”. Let’s all do our bit to keep promoting it…get rid of the DOOM AND GLOOM…let the sunshine come in…invite a friend over, and chat…

Fred Mills

Dan Padova said:

Wendell brings up a good point. Why don’t the manufacturers advertise in garden magazines ? Sometimes it takes a spark to light a fire.

Besides LGB I cannot recall ever seeing any manufacture promote that aspect of their products. They all advertise their stuff the same as the small gauges only bigger.

Let me sort of sum up my feelings channeling James Careville:

  1. Room - can’t take care of a big yard no more

  2. It’s the economy stupid. Retirement income just does not keep up the same especially as other things (like health see number 1) take more of that income

  3. Competing interests with dwindling resources - LS or model railroading/engineering competes with other interests and thus compete for dwindling available income (see 2 above).

I have finally sold off the last of my LS scale trains. In fact, currently am train less altogether. I looked at N scale and even HO and they just did not have the presence nor did my eyesight help with those scales. Secondly having to downsize means less yard to no yard, and smaller quarters. The trains were not the only thing to be excessed. If at some point I ever can think about it trains again it will probably be not much more than a circle running around the dining room or similar. That means no live steam, no big radius jobs.

Now as to future upcoming generations. Too much other things in their lives. Trains are a very small part of their perception. Heck some of them are not even car interested anymore. “Oh I rather just Uber.” Finance articles online (newspapers are dying business as well) seem to constantly scream about retirement, lack of pensions, stuff your 401K or Roth or MyIRA. Slow economy coupled with the constant worry does take its toll on the younger psyche. Yes, glad that more financial future stuff helps but it takes away from buying that car, buying that house (hey I rent because I can move and the next job might be across the country), and certainly time and income style hobbies like model railroading.

That there will be some, no doubt. I am sure Thomas and friends might have infected a long term thing.

From my view I see LS having a final heyday in the live steam before those of us get too old. After that I think LGB/Piko might be the longer term survivors. Stuff that can slip around really tight curves so one could stuff it along a ceiling or around a tree or smaller yard.

I do some Cowboy style shooting and they are in the same boat. Everyone is getting old, the younger ones are not interested in Cowboys/Westerns and more and more find firearms of any kind something akin to finding a snake behind the refrigerator - run jump scream the other way. Again there will always be a few but time, money and perception all wreak that this is not a hobby to get into.

But then again, who knows for sure. I could be wrong as well and maybe another decade or more something will change.