Norman Bourgault said:
Hi John, 1:24 Scale is popular over in England to model 30 Inch Gauge locomotives on SM32 ( 32 mm 1.25 inch Gauge #0 ) track.
The one question I have is that if Bachmann had stayed with 1:22.5 Scale, would Bachmann Large Scale Trains now have a higher sales volume than their present sales volume?
A second question is, Do Large Scale Modelers prefer 1:20.3 Scale and are they happy that Bachmann had changed their product line from 1:22.5 Scale over to 1:20.3 Scale?
I have to say that from my view from England I have never come across anything marketed in 1:24 scale representing 30" gauge prototypes. I’m a member of the 16 mm (per ft) scale NGM Association - 4,500 members and counting. For example the popular Welshpool & Llanfair stock is represented in 16 mm scale and supplied to run on 32 mm or 45 mm track systems by the primary suppliers - commercial demands dictated this compromise on track gauges as both are prevalent here. Has been this way for many years.
With regards to Bachmann producing highly detailed US outline 3ft gauge product in 1:22.5 scale - the price would have been the same if not higher. The prevalent track gauge in the home market, 45 mm, dictated the course Bachmann took. If you are going to produce more prototypically accurate product then you might as well get the scale right to match an accepted gauge that will be correct rather than try and promote another bastard scale/gauge combo. I think it would have killed sales if Fn3 was not the chosen scales not the other way around.
Am I happy ? Of course I am as I only really got into this hobby 16 years ago because of reasonably priced product, Bachmann Spectrum and AMS that was accurately scaled as Fn3 rather than the more toy like Big Hauler stuff.
I normally stay out of this type of discussion but here goes.
Is 1:20.32 dead? Absolutely not. Is 1:29 dead? Absolutely not. Is G Scale in general dead? Again absolutely not. Sales have actually picked up in Large Scale. However, I think Bob hit the nail on the head although perhaps not in the way intended.
Bob said
"Ive seen a bunch of ads lately in various places for 1:20 freight cars for $125-$150. They’re worth nowhere near that, IMHO. "
The used market is actually quite good and much of this used equipment is virtually new. This summer I purchased two AMS cars for $50 each which is $5-10 dollars more then I have paid for most of out fleet. I also later got two drop bottom gons at $65 each. I paid a used price but it turned out all were new in box.
This is good news for our railroad but bad news for the industry. Bachmann has not given up on 1:20.3. When it feels it can sell a product and make money they will produce a product. But they simply can not produce and sell models at the prices many of us are paying for good equipment. I visited Accucraft this summer and they have downsized considerably from when I visited a couple years back. The industry is hurting across the board.
If the market was active for the $150 cars. then more would be produced. But Bob is correct that in that most modelers currently think that is two high a price.
So long as there is a glut of good used equipment in the market, the manufacturers and dealers will have a rough time and new products will be further apart. In my opinion, those that succeed in this market will be those that can do small runs of equipment tailored to a very specific market.
In the meantime I am looking to add additional 1:20.3 flat cars to our roster and I can assure you that I will not be paying anywhere near $100+ for these cars.
Stan
Dear Mr. Max Winter,
" I have to say that from my view from England I have never come across anything marketed in 1:24 scale representing 30" gauge prototypes. I’m a member of the 16 mm (per ft) scale NGM Association - 4,500 members and counting. "
Please Google Gn15
Norman
so Gn15 should be 1:22 on HO or OO track. how does this relate to 1:24?
(and I did google Gn15)
I did find a guy claiming Gn15 meant 1:24 on 15" gauge track…
Greg
Hi Greg,
Gn15 is a rail modelling scale, using G scale 1:22.5 scale trains running on H0/00 gauge track, representing minimum gauge and miniature railways. Typical models built are between 1:20.3 and 1:24, or up to 1:29. Normen Europäischer Modellbahnen NEM 010 specification defines IIp for modelling 300–400 millimetres gauge. Wikipedia
Scale ratio: 1:22.5 – 1:29
Model gauge: 16.5 mm (0.65 in)
Prototype gauge: 15 in (381 mm); (Minimum gauge railway)
I had also previously found 30 inch gauge for Zero Gauge Track at 1:24 Scale. Which is what my latest interest is as I like the physical size of 1:24 Scale Trains. Not too small and not too large.
Norman
Unless my maths fail me 30" is 2’6". Or have I misread something in your original post Norman, where you were talking about 1:24 in relation to its use in conjunction with 32 mm (O) gauge track. Gn15 has a core of supporters in the UK, evidenced by their appearances at model railway shows with some very creative indoor exhibition layouts - I say indoor as the track gauge used is not ideally suited to outdoor use. But…Gn15 is very much the preserve of the scratch builder with a smattering of artisan kit manufacturers supplying product - not the volume producers that got involved with Fn3 and 16 mm, or Spur 2 for that matter…LGB all those years ago. How did we get such a proliferation of 45 mm gauge track systems I wonder ? You might be thinking of 7/8ths" scale (mainly c1:13.7 scale models of 2ft gauge prototypes running on 45 mm gauge track), which is gaining some traction in the UK mainstream with Accucraft and some of the established 3D printers and laser cutters getting involved to open up the market. Wonder why that happened ? (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
Back to the original theme but on a tangenital note - While at the recent big “Warley” model rail show in the UK, in part following up my interest in 009 (1:76 OO scale models on 9mm track, representing mainly UK/Colonial NG prototypes), I asked the question, “Why are the big boys getting into a niche part of the “indoor” UK hobby”. It is notable that Bachmann, Peco and Heljan have come into the market with exquisite volume produced product to suit this scale/gauge combo. Back came the answer - Because they ran out of ideas in their traditional markets (O, OO,HO and N) and wanted to develop new sales opportunities. They are transforming and opening up what was a niche area of the hobby - till now, like Gn15 mainly populated by talented modellers and artisan kit makers. Which brings us back to why did Fn3 get so popular in the first place and why is it considered by some now to be dead.
I agree with most of the comments so far on Fn3/1:20.3 - The big boys have saturated the market, they’ve done all the accessible prototypes that have a chance of selling in the required volumes the problem is the incomes of their intended buyers have tanked over the past 10 years - hence this market seems to now be moribund. The high end “metal” products in LS garden railways though seem to still sell, or so the traders in the UK say. Anyone for Chinese NG mining locos in 16 mm scale. I think there may be a new market opening up. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-smile.gif)
Pretty much what I expected that for the most part the market is saturated with the plastic stuff. However, it seems that there was still a bit of room with small(ish) run like the C-18 and SP #18. I would think even something like a rail bus from the M1 to a more generic Mack or DVRR might have enough interest but maybe not. However, I guess like the EBT mike it took a long time to show enough interest in the project.
It just seems to me that these days with the trade of the Bachmann k-27 being pretty much dear when they do appear for sale that another run could be made. Then again, maybe there is not enough market.
Presumably for narrow gauge American it pretty much is Rio Grande. Too bad, I know probably not many but a brass run of GE Class 90 WP&Y would have my interest.
Unfortunately you are in the minority wanting brass large scale… no major manufacturer would go there in any volume, i.e. to make money… sure, Marklin/LGB announced a $4,000 G scale snow thrower… that’s not a money maker… even if they make a profit on it, the volume sold is a drop in the bucket.
In 1:20.3, a really good running and engineered loco like the Bachmann C-19, arguably the best loco they ever made, would be the key.
Still confused about Norman, is he presenting Gn15 of 1:24 on HO track for 15" gauge, or is he presenting 1:24 on 30mm track, for 30" gauge?
When Max stated that he has never seen 1:24 on (I’m guessing) 30mm track marketed… Norman sends him to the Gn15 page, which is not 30" gauge… and there is a picture of a small diorama that says it is portraying 15" gauge with a wide range of scales… (figure that out!) Still don’t see any repudiation to Max’s comment about the availability of 30" gauge products in 1:24 scale
My interpretation of the statement was that you can of course build anything you like, but off the shelf 30" gauge 1:24 stuff is not off the shelf.
Dear Mr. Max Winter,
" I have to say that from my view from England I have never come across anything marketed in 1:24 scale representing 30" gauge prototypes. I’m a member of the 16 mm (per ft) scale NGM Association - 4,500 members and counting. "
Please Google Gn15
Norman
Dear Mr. Max Winter,
" where you were talking about 1:24 in relation to its use in conjunction with 32 mm (O) gauge track. " , Yes exactly as 24 * 1.25" = 30"
I have checked with the designer of the Delton Sierra Combine and Coach who has informed me that those Sierra cars are suitable for freelance 30 inch Gauge.
I have some exact scale rivet counter locomotives but I have now broadened my interest to obtain some attractive freelance models.
Minitrains.eu manufactures a really neat HOn30 Forney, product number 1031 and 1032. I may purchase one Forney with two coaches just for shelf display.
However, 1:24 Scale 30 Inch Gauge SM32 Track Gauge # 0 offers the opportunity for a compact indoor layout with a large body locomotive.
The WRIGHTSCALE 0 GAUGE (16MM SCALE) LIVE STEAM MODEL OF A WREN CLASS 0-4-0
is an example of the Scale / Gauge Combination that has really grabbed my interest.
Mr. Max Winter, can you inform myself as to who are the British Manufacturers of 0 Gauge 16 mm Scale ?
Thank you,
Norman
"
Unless my maths fail me 30" is 2’6". Or have I misread something in your original post Norman, where you were talking about 1:24 in relation to its use in conjunction with 32 mm (O) gauge track. Gn15 has a core of supporters in the UK, evidenced by their appearances at model railway shows with some very creative indoor exhibition layouts - I say indoor as the track gauge used is not ideally suited to outdoor use. But…Gn15 is very much the preserve of the scratch builder with a smattering of artisan kit manufacturers supplying product - not the volume producers that got involved with Fn3 and 16 mm, or Spur 2 for that matter…LGB all those years ago. How did we get such a proliferation of 45 mm gauge track systems I wonder ? You might be thinking of 7/8ths" scale (mainly c1:13.7 scale models of 2ft gauge prototypes running on 45 mm gauge track), which is gaining some traction in the UK mainstream with Accucraft and some of the established 3D printers and laser cutters getting involved to open up the market. Wonder why that happened ? (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
Back to the original theme but on a tangenital note - While at the recent big “Warley” model rail show in the UK, in part following up my interest in 009 (1:76 OO scale models on 9mm track, representing mainly UK/Colonial NG prototypes), I asked the question, “Why are the big boys getting into a niche part of the “indoor” UK hobby”. It is notable that Bachmann, Peco and Heljan have come into the market with exquisite volume produced product to suit this scale/gauge combo. Back came the answer - Because they ran out of ideas in their traditional markets (O, OO,HO and N) and wanted to develop new sales opportunities. They are transforming and opening up what was a niche area of the hobby - till now, like Gn15 mainly populated by talented modellers and artisan kit makers. Which brings us back to why did Fn3 get so popular in the first place and why is it considered by some now to be dead.
I agree with most of the comments so far on Fn3/1:20.3 - The big boys have saturated the market, they’ve done all the accessible prototypes that have a chance of selling in the required volumes the problem is the incomes of their intended buyers have tanked over the past 10 years - hence this market seems to now be moribund. The high end “metal” products in LS garden railways though seem to still sell, or so the traders in the UK say. Anyone for Chinese NG mining locos in 16 mm scale. I think there may be a new market opening up. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-smile.gif)
"
I went to the Wrightscale site, shows 6 locomotives: http://wrightscale.co.uk/trains.html
Their blog refers to their models being 16mm scale, and the Wren indeed is stated to run on O gauge track.
It did not take a lot of effort to take Max’s words and paste them into google.
Greg
Still confused about Norman,
Greg, if you just ignored Norman’s digressions, this thread could stay on 1:20.3 and you wouldn’t be accused of anything. The way to stop thread drift is to ignore the off-topic posts.
It just seems to me that these days with the trade of the Bachmann k-27 being pretty much dear when they do appear for sale that another run could be made.
Lorna, you make a good case, and that course is exactly what Bachmann does - wait until the used market is saturated and then re-introduce a better version. They did that with the 2-6-0 recently.
There are several manufacturers who are receptive to product ideas. WuHu quoted me a very reasonavble price to produce a brass M-1 Railcar model, with a minimum run of only 10. The 3D printers are churning out very interesting models which require some model-making skills but nothing the average kit-builder can’t handle.
You are right Pete, but now it’s gone on so long, thread drift is inevitable, also really the question is answered, with pretty much a consensus, the shrinking of the market and the large amount of new and near new stuff on the secondary market is the reality.
The 16mm scale stuff is interesting, and there’s not anything new in the 1:20.3 discussion really… no offense to your last post, small production runs do not a hobby make… When LGB, Bachmann, USA Trains, Piko do something then it will be news and impact the hobby.
Greg
So, after all the non essential stuff about O gauge and HO gauge large scale, and other divergences, what was the consensus? Is 1:20.3 dead? Or is it hibernating until the used market recedes?
Of course that is RTR 1:20.3. The kit-bashers and scratch-builders can still make what they want to make.
Legendary…
hibernating
Do not worry my friends. I have spent the last few days negotiating with the state of New Mexico for a grant to establish a 1/20.3 Preservation Association. Everything is in place.
You may now send your engines, rolling stock and properly scaled scenery to me for inclusion in the archive. This will insure that future generations will have first hand examples of what once was. Inclusion of your collection is a free service although you are responsible for shipping charges to get it here. All submissions become the property of the archive. I am the archive…
Message me here on LSC for the shipping location info.
Problem solved, at least until the market reemerges and production resumes which could happen any day now. Hope springs eternal as I hear that Ford is tooling up for the all new in 2022 Edsel…because they never really left that market. (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)
Yeah, I would ship it to the Archives but they will paint it apple
Pete Thornton said:
It just seems to me that these days with the trade of the Bachmann k-27 being pretty much dear when they do appear for sale that another run could be made.
Lorna, you make a good case, and that course is exactly what Bachmann does - wait until the used market is saturated and then re-introduce a better version. They did that with the 2-6-0 recently.
There are several manufacturers who are receptive to product ideas. WuHu quoted me a very reasonavble price to produce a brass M-1 Railcar model, with a minimum run of only 10. The 3D printers are churning out very interesting models which require some model-making skills but nothing the average kit-builder can’t handle.
WEW! Only a minimum of 10? I would be interested.
Pete, I would be interested in an M1 too. I know of a possible three others that might be as well. If you think this may have traction you can get in touch with some details and I can contact them.