Large Scale Central

Have Locomotive, Need Cane Cars

Modeling
#21

Photo update…

The boys and I started with some MOW work and got trains running, critical steps to any modeling endeavor!

I find there is nothing like seeing the trains rolling to serve as motivation, especially, as Kid-zilla indicates, I am going to take on the saw!

Last week’s run to the Hawaii Historical Railroad provided another option for the chassis:

Though from the Navy’s underground engineering system, it served as another example of rough and ready, go with what you go, railroad engineering. Based on it and the actual can car, the boys and I assembled two basic frames:

Lunch calls…More to follow…

Eric

#22

Back to the project…

Unfortunately, I had made a critical omission in my planning sketches - the width of the wheels themselves. As a consequence, neither frame fit over the wheels as intended. To get the frames to clear, it would also require us to lower the couplers, which I had planned to mount right to the frame. Kid-zilla indicates what I mean:

A bit of scrap wood showed this was fixable:

…but mounting the wheels remained an issue. Oldest Son and I cut up a Pop Tart box o get an idea of high the car would have to ride to make all this work…

….and it would just look goofy. I think even if the commercial journal fit, the resulting car would ride too high for its intended purpose as a cane car. Clearly, I am going to have to go with GAP’s suggestion and mount the journals to the inside of the frame:

Naturally, I cut the timbers with the assumption my original sketch would work, so the first two prototypes will be an inch shorter with the beams running “athwartships” mounted interior to those running lengthwise, but that is OK. I’d rather not waste the material. Successive cars in the class will simply have slightly longer endbeams.

If the “pasidump” journals fit sizewise, I will order a couple packs. With the journals now being mounted on the interior, however, with all details hidden, I may putter around and see if I can craft something.

Have a good weekend all!

Eric

#23

have a look here:

https://www.amazon.com/BlueSunshine-Eyelets-Setting-Leather-Fabrics/dp/B074PX9BST/ref=sr_1_113?keywords=eyelet+for+shoes&qid=1583632513&sr=8-113

insert them into wood, and you got fine journals.

#24

Korm,

Got it. Those little eylets are available locally, which is very helpful. I have some foam scraps from the “Mik Challenge” I can play with to get the size and shape of whatever I’ll need to bolt / glue to the frame. I will need to raise the frame a bit to clear the wheel flanges whatever I do.

Eric

#25

Korm,

Foam experiment worked. It will allow me to raise the deck just enough without making it look goofy. I can use the now-too-short end beams as raw material, minimizing waste. I have to tinker with this a bit more, but I think if I go with 4" overall width, which conforms to my LGB equipment, that’ll let me set the frames of these cars just enough over the wheel set to make this work. I’d post the photo, but, of course, I cannot upload it. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

Eric

#26

Eric Mueller said:

Korm,

Foam experiment worked. It will allow me to raise the deck just enough without making it look goofy. I can use the now-too-short end beams as raw material, minimizing waste. I have to tinker with this a bit more, but I think if I go with 4" overall width, which conforms to my LGB equipment, that’ll let me set the frames of these cars just enough over the wheel set to make this work. I’d post the photo, but, of course, I cannot upload it. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

Eric

Eric,

I have photos with measurements of the pasidump journals and wheels but because the Mickey Mouse method of posting from Freight Shed has come into play I cannot post them on here. (seriously you guys can put a man on the moon but can’t get pictures to post on a forum)

The journals are 1.25" high from top to bottom, as are the wheels flange to flange, the completed wagon sits approx. 1.75" from the top of the rail to the top of the wagon deck.

If you want the pictures send me a message with an email address and I will send them. I can take pictures of the completed wagon if you need them.

#27

Korm and GAP,

I won the war with my computer and got those pictures uploaded. I also used those dimension’s, GAP to make my cardstock journals (sort of). Anyway, if I go with Korm’s idea, it looks like the mock-ups below:

With the wood in place, the sides would look closer to this:

The black circle is where the axels would have to go to make sure the wheels are under the deck. The hole is 3mm, like the axel. I’d probably use brass tubing vice those grommets. I have an electric drill but no drill press, which makes me wonder about the efficacy of this method. On the other hand, all material is available at the local hobby shop.

GAP, today I made rectangular representations of the “pasidump journals” using your measurements. I actually made them a bit long. I didn’t want to cut more timber until I figured this all out, but I assembled a car with the journal standi-ins taped to the inside of the frame:

That’ll work, too, I think. I might have to put some shims under the coupler, but that is pretty easy and well within “craft stick” skills. The only downside, of course, is I have to order the journals and hope pieces of a former Pop Tart cartoon allowed for an accurate enough model!

The frame does have to be widened to 4" regardless of which path I take. I plan to use the now-too-small 3" end beams as the center beam of the cars, gluing them together, bracing them as necessary, cutting it to length, and fitting them to the car. These aren’t really load bearing, but I think the center beam will make decking these cars easier. Or, I’ll just repurpose them for some other project. My bridge abutments need work…

Progress. Not what I’d hoped, but progress.

Have a great week!

Eric

#28

Eric Mueller said:

Korm and GAP,

I won the war with my computer and got those pictures uploaded. I also used those dimension’s, GAP to make my cardstock journals (sort of). Anyway, if I go with Korm’s idea, it looks like the mock-ups below:

With the wood in place, the sides would look closer to this:

The black circle is where the axels would have to go to make sure the wheels are under the deck. The hole is 3mm, like the axel. I’d probably use brass tubing vice those grommets. I have an electric drill but no drill press, which makes me wonder about the efficacy of this method. On the other hand, all material is available at the local hobby shop.

GAP, today I made rectangular representations of the “pasidump journals” using your measurements. I actually made them a bit long. I didn’t want to cut more timber until I figured this all out, but I assembled a car with the journal standi-ins taped to the inside of the frame:

That’ll work, too, I think. I might have to put some shims under the coupler, but that is pretty easy and well within “craft stick” skills. The only downside, of course, is I have to order the journals and hope pieces of a former Pop Tart cartoon allowed for an accurate enough model!

The frame does have to be widened to 4" regardless of which path I take. I plan to use the now-too-small 3" end beams as the center beam of the cars, gluing them together, bracing them as necessary, cutting it to length, and fitting them to the car. These aren’t really load bearing, but I think the center beam will make decking these cars easier. Or, I’ll just repurpose them for some other project. My bridge abutments need work…

Progress. Not what I’d hoped, but progress.

Have a great week!

Eric

Eric,

You may want to consider just buying the Pasidump wagon kits and bashing them to take the couplers.

#29

freehand drilled 3mm holes and 3mm axles will make a fine brake.

that is, why i used 4mm grommets with 3mm axles. allows for slightly (mark me: “slightly”) inclined boreholes.

#30

GAP and Korm:

Thanks again. I am inclined to agree, GAP, I should’ve started with a kit or, per Bill’s suggestion, the HLW mini-flats, but I really wanted to see what I could do with the raw materials provided to me an on hand. The simplicity of the prototypes and the relatively forgiving nature of the measurements (screwed that up, anyway, didn’t I?) made this an ideal project for a first crack at scratch building. There is plenty of place to repurpose and reuse material to accommodate the best teacher of all - mistakes - as we go along!

At any rate, since I have the wood blocks on hand, I am going to go with Korm’s suggestion first. The worst that can happen is that I make smaller bits of scrap wood from existing scrap wood. To prevent future screw-ups, I laid everything out on the cutting board:

Based on this 4" end beams will do it with the sideframes inset about 1/8" port and starboard. I’ll mount my…shall we call them “journals?”…in my vise, and, per Korm’s suggestion, drill a bigger than needed hole to accommodate my incredible skill with tools.

Oh, one man’s screw up is a Kid-zilla’s creative opportunity:

He had a blast with my bits and pieces making stations and lumber cars as I tinkered with the mock-ups.

Onward we go…

Eric

#31

Eric,

The last picture sums up what a hobby should be all about.

For children that is challenging the mind to create something that stimulates or satisfies their imagination, not just buying something in a shop and saying “here play with this”.

I channel my inner child all the time (wife keeps telling me I never grew up (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)) sometimes not successfully, but every unsuccessful endevour is an opportunity to learn.

#32

GAP said:

Eric Mueller said:

Korm and GAP,

I won the war with my computer and got those pictures uploaded. I also used those dimension’s, GAP to make my cardstock journals (sort of). Anyway, if I go with Korm’s idea, it looks like the mock-ups below:

With the wood in place, the sides would look closer to this:

The black circle is where the axels would have to go to make sure the wheels are under the deck. The hole is 3mm, like the axel. I’d probably use brass tubing vice those grommets. I have an electric drill but no drill press, which makes me wonder about the efficacy of this method. On the other hand, all material is available at the local hobby shop.

GAP, today I made rectangular representations of the “pasidump journals” using your measurements. I actually made them a bit long. I didn’t want to cut more timber until I figured this all out, but I assembled a car with the journal standi-ins taped to the inside of the frame:

That’ll work, too, I think. I might have to put some shims under the coupler, but that is pretty easy and well within “craft stick” skills. The only downside, of course, is I have to order the journals and hope pieces of a former Pop Tart cartoon allowed for an accurate enough model!

The frame does have to be widened to 4" regardless of which path I take. I plan to use the now-too-small 3" end beams as the center beam of the cars, gluing them together, bracing them as necessary, cutting it to length, and fitting them to the car. These aren’t really load bearing, but I think the center beam will make decking these cars easier. Or, I’ll just repurpose them for some other project. My bridge abutments need work…

Progress. Not what I’d hoped, but progress.

Have a great week!

Eric

Eric,

You may want to consider just buying the Pasidump wagon kits and bashing them to take the couplers.

Eric,

I have found out to attach photos so here is one of a Pasidump wagon assembled, please note that I bleached it to get rid of the stain they use so I could paint it without bleed through.

You can also see one the washers that I glue to all for wheels to add weight low down, with the washers these wagons go over rough trackwork and through points with little to none derailing they are fairly forgiving like that.

#33

GAP,

Thanks. That is a beautiful little car at the same price as a HLW “mini.” A kit might have to serve as a basis for a future project!

I bought some 4mm brass tubing (grommets not being available) today and a cutter, so I have what I need for “Korm-style” journals. This weekend is supposed to be rainy, so I am going to press on with material on hand to see if I craft a prototype. If it works and couples to a locomotive and our HLW minis and LGB “feldbahn” cars, I’ll be able to turn the design over to the crew for mass production. With a handsaw and our mitre box, each “crewman” should be able to cut the parts for one car, if he or she desires (My rule: “All may participate, but none must.”). If it proves too tricky to get the wheels to line up, then I’ll move on to the commercial solution.

Enjoy the weekend!

Eric

#34

I came into some two axle ‘EZ-Tech’ cars you can have. Might be possible to modify them into something suitable.

#35

Eric Mueller said:

GAP,

Thanks. That is a beautiful little car at the same price as a HLW “mini.” A kit might have to serve as a basis for a future project!

I bought some 4mm brass tubing (grommets not being available) today and a cutter, so I have what I need for “Korm-style” journals. This weekend is supposed to be rainy, so I am going to press on with material on hand to see if I craft a prototype. If it works and couples to a locomotive and our HLW minis and LGB “feldbahn” cars, I’ll be able to turn the design over to the crew for mass production. With a handsaw and our mitre box, each “crewman” should be able to cut the parts for one car, if he or she desires (My rule: “All may participate, but none must.”). If it proves too tricky to get the wheels to line up, then I’ll move on to the commercial solution.

Enjoy the weekend!

Eric

Its all about involving everybody, even imperfections can be overcome/overlooked.

A motto that may help “Its not a mistake till you can’t fix it” this works for me and I also use the old English “LNER” rule.

LNER = Looks Near Enough Right?

My railway follows prototypical practices; because it is a prototype there is non other one like it on this planet.

Which is why I love Australian sugar cane railways and other short lines from around the world, every one of them was unique.

If it makes you and the family happy them all is good.

#36

Eric a picture of a steam cane train to give some inspiration.

It is "Bundaberg Fowler Number 1 with a cane fire in the background and new planting in the foreground, it is pulling modern day “Bins” which hold about 3 ton of cane.

In its heyday it would be pulling “whole stick” wagons similar to what you are modelling.

The difference between the wagons is that in the old days the cane was cut by hand and the whole length of cane was loaded onto the wagons, nowadays it is cut by harvesters which cut it up into 12-18" lengths and dump them in the bins.

#37

GAP,

Thanks. That machine vs. hand cutting probably explains while all of the photos I have from here show what amount to rolling haystacks instead of comparatively neat loads like the one you shared. I had wondered why that was the case.

My own project proceeds apace. In fact, the basic frame is now drying outside! I ended up using 1" scraps for my journals, drilling them at 4mm as Korm suggested, inserting a bit of brass tubing in one side, and capping the outboard side wiht a 3mm grommet, again per Korm’s suggestion. The boys helped on an off, with Oldest Son cutting some of the tubing:

Yes, they are a bit crude, but the wheel sets roll nicely. I had originally thought to drill the whole 1/8" up from the bottom, but that would’ve left no room for drilling error and have let a weaker journal. Instead, I drill them dead center and figured we’d see how she lay from there.

The next step, which was more fun, was to get the appropriate measurement for the two side frames and, of course, see how she lays sitting on our high tech journals! Both my helpers took a crack…

…and the end result were side-beams set 1/8" in from the edge of the 4" end beams. Kid-zilla inspects the mock-up:

There is very little clearance between the flange and where the deck will be. I may have to lay a plank along the fore-and-aft beams to ensure I don’t have any issues. The final mock-up, with the centerline of the journal grommets set 1" back from the end ofthe side-beams are below:

You’ll note by shear dumb luck the coupler aligns perfectly with the HLW mini to the left. That is why I’d rather build up from the frame rather than shim down.

I have since glued some washers to the back fo the wheel sets per your suggestion, GAP. I’ll glue the journals on tomorrow after the glue on the frame is good and dry. I have to locate some wood screws for the coupler, too. With luck, I’ll have this prototype sans deck on the rails by next weekend. If it tracks OK, then we’ll convert the remaining timbers into frames for the rest of the fleet.

Thanks for the tips along the way!

Eric

P.S. Tim, thanks for your generosity, but I think we are over the hump with a workable plan.

#38

Eric,

Those wagons look OK to me to cover the open end of the tubing consider a circle of styrene to simulate bearing covers.

I have used the ends of plastic spring clothes pegs to do bearing covers.

As for the "rolling hay stacks from what I have seen in Hawaii they stacked the sticks length wise along the direction of travel while in Aust they stacked it across the direction of travel.

As promised I went to the museum this morning and took some pictures of our maintenance cars which are basically cane wagons bashed to suit the purpose. You can see that the journals used were all different depending on who made them eg BFC = Bundaberg Foundry Co.

More examples of how Australian cane railway workshops just made stuff to do a job using whatever was at hand.

Ballast hopper journal

Rail wagon journal

Rail Wagon made by workshop fitters/boilermakers

Sleeper Wagon journal

Sleeper wagon again workshop made

Concrete skip journal

Concrete skip

#39

looks like eldest daughter is hard at work on the coach

#40

Gap,

Thanks so much for the additional photos and your detailing tips. The variety of types in your sample really do validate my decision to go with what I had on hand. I did want to validate the basic chassis before detailing. It wobbled a bit on the test track, but Oldest Son did prove it was OK under 0-5-0 power on our railroad. Still, it doesn’t count until it is hooked into a train. Y yesterday we did a final coupler height check:

…and today, Kid-zilla and I ran the cane care chassis between some HLW and LGB cars with which it will likely serve alongside:

The chassis coupled fine to Diesel Dan and the HLW mini. Interestingly, the LGB stake side car would only reliably couple hook-to-hook. The LGB hoop is just a smidge too high, and our minor changes in grade caused it to uncouple. It won’t push open spring loaded points, but then neither do the commercial cars, and it did suffer from a few derailments. As they always occurred at the same point in the track, I am attributing them to creative interpretations of level and not poor design. I have to say, GAP, had I not taken your advice and glued those washers to the back side of the wheels, I think the test would’ve failed.

A short video follows: Cane Car Test

We are prepping for a lock down, so I will save mass production and “fitting out” for that time. I do want to emulate our local example picured at the beginning of this with bulkheads on each end and chains in between, so the time between now and what is coming will allow me to ponder that. Couplers, tenders, wheel sets, and craftsticks are all on hand for a home-schooling lesson in “railroad engineering!”

Eric

P.S. Tim, yep, it was a modeling and crafting sort of day!