Time for a little experiment.
I have some tight radius G scale Aristocraft turnouts that my steamers cant go thru.
So, instead of buying or handlaying new turnouts, I will try to rebuild them into #5’s instead.
I used Fusion 360 to CAD design a new frog and the surrounding ties.
It will be 3D printed in ABS+ on my trusty old Wanhao Duplicator 4S.
Then I can use the points and just alter the radius on the rails.
Will be interested in how the ABS+ wears, frogs can take a beating.
Greg
I have heard of several others trying to make those “Narrow Radius” switches into something else of a wider radius. None were reporting any success, after a great many hours of “Farting around”. It takes more than just a change of frog, or frog angle to properly produce a "Wider angle " switch (Turnout).
Building a proper, well engineered switch takes a bit of research, and building one from scratch, that is durable and long lasting (Maintenance free) is an art that few accomplish. It’s the durability over the long term that seems to be the loosing battle, or just the need of continuous maintenance.
Even with the poor engineering of the Aristo wide radius switches, basically they do stand the test of time, if you get the guard rails replaced, or put into gauge, and replace the throw bars, which usually are the first part to go. The frog was actually not the fault causing most problems.
I have, in continuous service, numerous WR Aristo switches that after upgrading have been in continuous service for almost 25 years, or more. BUT; to try to make a narrow radius one into something that it isn’t; seems like a waste of time…BUT…If you manage, and are successful…WELL DONE…I congratulate you, whole heartedly…
It looks like the latest “Piko” switches are the replacements to try for a “Wide radius” switch. I have 4 of them here, just waiting for an opportunity to show their stuff…they do look favourable, but an actual test in true operations is needed for me to say anything else about them.
Fred Mills
I never measured the frog angle of the “tight” switches, I assume the LGB R1 equivalent (4 foot diameter), so about a #2 frog.
The Aristo Wide Radius switches have about a #4 frog and they are pretty much a 10 foot diameter curve.
So, while you can take the “frog rails” from the original switch, and put them in a new, custom designed frog, I am likewise very interested in the results as you take the pre-curved parts of tho original switch and make them significantly different.
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
I never measured the frog angle of the “tight” switches, I assume the LGB R1 equivalent (4 foot diameter), so about a #2 frog.
The Aristo Wide Radius switches have about a #4 frog and they are pretty much a 10 foot diameter curve.
So, while you can take the “frog rails” from the original switch, and put them in a new, custom designed frog, I am likewise very interested in the results as you take the pre-curved parts of tho original switch and make them significantly different.
Greg
The only thing salvaged from the original turnout are the point rails, switch bar and the rails.
I have to reshape them though.
This is how far I’ve come:
One more thing, the cost of making these are in the range of $5 a piece…
I got a donation of 8 of the small radius turnouts, so the option was to either bin them or remake them.
I have altered the faults of the original frogs, i.e. the height of the wheel gap. As the LGB wheels would bounce on the original.
The longer the switch, the longer the diverging rails, the rails from the point rail hinge to the frog. The point rails are also usually longer in a longer switch, because the angle they mate with the stock rails is shallower. In the long run, it just might be easier to start with rail and bend, cut and form your own for the switch.
This is going to be interesting to watch.
Please continue.
Some alterations that will be done on the final version are to make the frog as a separate piece, make a better tie bar design and possibly beef up the point blade fasteners.
David Maynard said:
The longer the switch, the longer the diverging rails, the rails from the point rail hinge to the frog. The point rails are also usually longer in a longer switch, because the angle they mate with the stock rails is shallower. In the long run, it just might be easier to start with rail and bend, cut and form your own for the switch.
The biggest headache with making a switch is the point rails and the frog, both of which you have sidestepped. Making point rails longer by adding length is simple as long as you have the pointy bits.
There have been several threads on making your own switches, and 2 articles in GR magazine, although none of us contemplated 3D printing. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)I also use the PRR official track drawings http://prr.railfan.net/standards/
In the interests of clarity, I offer this pic showing the various parts of the switch - published in the 1999 GR article.
There’s a lot to turnout design.
Your LGB wheels went “bump” because they are supposed to!
LGB uses “flange bearing” frogs so that the gross clearances at the frog do not allow the wheels to drop into the throat of the frog.
All the dimensions of the turnouts and the wheels work in concert, so you normally cannot change something in the turnouts without having an effect on the wheels.
Traditionally, our wheels have had excessive tread width and narrow back to back. These allow tolerances to be more “sloppy” and force the flangeway widths on the stock rails to be wider. This also requires the flangeway widths on the wing rails to be wider, since you have this narrower back to back.
Now you have the issue of trying to keep the wheel supported as it goes through the frog, and with these wider tolerances, there’s really only 2 solutions, much wider tread widths, or a flange bearing frog, i.e. the wheel rides on the flange through the frog, not the rail heads.
This is what LGB chose, and many European manufacturers in many scales from G to Z.
So, I will be interested to follow what you learn.
Greg
The flange depth is now the same as my Piko turnouts. The AristoCraft was much shallower.
Pete, I’m pretty sure wing rails are the guard rails on the frog, not as you have illustrated (what you called wing rails are often caused closure rails)… you will note that the wing rails are like wings…
not perfect, but some more on terminology:
https://elmassian.com/index.php/large-scale-train-main-page/track-aamp-switches/turnouts-in-general
Greg
Pete Thornton said:
David Maynard said:
The longer the switch, the longer the diverging rails, the rails from the point rail hinge to the frog. The point rails are also usually longer in a longer switch, because the angle they mate with the stock rails is shallower. In the long run, it just might be easier to start with rail and bend, cut and form your own for the switch.
The biggest headache with making a switch is the point rails and the frog, both of which you have sidestepped. Making point rails longer by adding length is simple as long as you have the pointy bits.
There have been several threads on making your own switches, and 2 articles in GR magazine, although none of us contemplated 3D printing. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)I also use the PRR official track drawings http://prr.railfan.net/standards/
In the interests of clarity, I offer this pic showing the various parts of the switch - published in the 1999 GR article.
What have I sidestepped?
The OP has sidestepped this by printing a frog (hopefully correctly) and reusing the points. Is this what you meant?
Greg Elmassian said:
All the dimensions of the turnouts and the wheels work in concert, so you normally cannot change something in the turnouts without having an effect on the wheels.
I recently had this conversation with my pal about his LGB and Aristocraft switches. He runs everything from Accucraft semi-fine-scale to LGB not-scale wheelsets.
It is impossible to build a truly universal switch, given the diversity of wheels on our trains. If you set up the frog and check rails to handle LGB, then your finer wheel flanges will drop into the frog gap with a big and noticeable clunk. I recommend a tight check rail and wide frog/guard rail gap, with a flange support to stop wheels from falling so far down that they derail on the frog point.
Pete, I’m pretty sure wing rails are the guard rails on the frog, not as you have illustrated (what you called wing rails are often caused closure rails)… you will note that the wing rails are like wings…
I think my diagram (which was vetted by the GR Editor, Marc,) has ‘wing rails’ that continue all the way past and guarding the frog, thus meeting your definition? I used to make them as one piece.
The above echoes my understanding of the parts, except the Crossing nose is our Frog.
The above echoes my understanding of the parts, except the Crossing nose is our Frog.
That looks like a professional description! Amazing how many different versions there are. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cry.gif)
Was a quick grab, I saw the wings and later saw the running nose, as it were.(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
Back in the day, my first loco was an Aster Climax and the switches i could get were LGB. The climax was not pleased. I ended up making new gaurd rails for the diverging track. Tighter back to back seemed to “solve” the problem. These were the wider radius switches…4 or 5 foot radius if i recall. I still have those switches and use them in a yard on my layout and on my portable “Brigadoon Light Railway”.
Looks like a cool project!
In most cases if you:
Everything will run very well
I can pull and back up very long trains and I have nasty grades, no super light cars (all weighted to about 3.5 lbs for 40’) and body mount couplers.
It can be done, but if you improve the specs on your wheels, you need to address the switches. In most cases the frogs can be left alone, or just shim the wing rails.
Greg
It can be done, but if you improve the specs on your wheels,
Alternatively, standardize on one make of wheel and stick to it.
