…on elevated train tables…
Once the table frame is built, and the galvanized hog wire and weed cloth have been laid, is it really necessary to build the ladder, or can one just add the fill, and float the track, as though it was on the ground?
Has anyone tried this?
Yes, I’m lazy efficient.
Hi Steve,
I have done it both ways it mostly depends on the spacing of your framing. I used both methods on the old RR with mixed results. First, as you probably know, you can’t beat the ladder bed for rigidity across the span between framing members and the 1" to 1-1/2" depth of the ballast/bedding keeps a more uniform surface. I found placing the track directly on the weed block/hardware cloth even with framing members on 12" centers there was still sagging of the materials and to a small extent the track. Another thing, with the ballast/bedding only the depth of the ties it has a tendency to move around a lot during rain/snow/wind storms. Having said that it still worked perfectly fine.
Re-Reading your post I see that you might be talking about laying track on an inch or more of bedding, this will eliminate the washing around problem but only increase the sagging between framing members.
On this new RR I have used 1" Cedar decking for the ladder and 1-1/2 material for the side boards, this holds the ballast/bedding even across the top of the ties out to the edges, there is no sloping away from the track so it stays put during rain etc. On the newest section the “Redding Yards” I built with a solid OSB deck then used 4" strips of OSB on that to lay the track, this method gives almost an inch of ballast/bedding so when the Squirrels or neighbors cats go bopping down the tables as a short cut to their destination it is not so obvious.
Rick
Well Steve, I never really gave that idea a thought. Although it may have been easier and faster to do it that way, I not all that sure it would have solved anything. With the ladder under the track and fastened down it gives it more stability and keeps it at a consistent 2 1/2" above the foundation.
Another thing is dirt has a tendency to settle which I found after I had the roadbed and track down. I had a usable roadbed and track before I even added any fill around it. And since mine has a few grades, the dirt does have a tendency to wash/move during heavy rains. I also get squirrels or something that like to dig holes here and there on the layout. None of that however has affected the roadbed. Filling in any washed out areas or any dug out holes is just a simple matter of a couple of scoops of dirt. The freeze/thaw cycle we get during the winter hasn’t affected it either. That used to play havoc with the track when I had it laid directly the ground. And that was my main reason for building it this way.
I used a ladder method for pretty much the same reasons that Rick describes. The only differences are I used PVC and Rick uses cedar and my spans are 6" instead of 12". The underlying mesh and screening may have sagged a bit but it hasn’t affected the track any.
I have, however, found one or two areas where I didn’t fasten the track down adequately where dirt has gotten between the ties and ladder and caused it to heave up a bit and become “un-level”. It was a lot easier to fix by taking up the track and scooping the dirt off the ladder and relaying the track than it would have been had it been directly on the ground. But with any method, you live and learn. And in the 4 years that it’s been built, if that’s the only problem I can find, I can live with it.
I’m very happy with the results I’ve gotten with this method. The roadbed hasn’t moved, the track work hasn’t moved and maintenance on the whole thing track-wise is minimal.
Rick, if i understand you, your ladder was one inch tall. How thick was it?
I tried 1/8 inch thick redwood, but that failed, and will be replaced, next week. I understood that Dick Smith at Port Orford made his 1/8 inch thick. I’ll probably go with 1/4, or 3/8, but that might be a bit much.
The 1/8" thick failed by absorbing water and working it’s way out of the dirt, and twisting.
Steve,
I used a 5/16 rip for the ladder rails, taking two rips off a 1 X 4 leaves a piece wide enough to use for the blocks and allows the tie ends to ride on the ladder rails.
If I remember right, and that may be doubtful, using like three 8 ft cedar decking planks from Home Depot, they are 1 1/8 X 3 1/2 nominal I ripped 2, 5/16 pieces off of two of them leaving the rest to cut into 6 inch spacer blocks then ripped the 3rd one into all 5/16 strips, seems like this produced about 40 + feet of ladder.
I’m in the design process of a ladder roadbed too, I was thinking of 1/4" cedar strips as well.
What I’m reading is that the height if the ladder should equal the height of the side boards. That’s critical piece of info.
My ladder roadbed is about 2 1/2" high and the brick molding I use on the edge is a little taller then that. It’s about even with the tops of the ties.
Good discussion. Remember, folks, that Ken has an ops session scheduled for April 27 and 28, with run what you brung on Friday 26.
So you can run trains AND see his work in living color. http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/29054/kops-2019
He’s in southern PA. Hope to see ya!
Living in Washington, cedar and redwood 2 x Xs are fairly common. There is a lumber yard 2 miles from the house with better quality stuff, at a better price, than the big box stores. I’ll probably use the 2 x X stuff, depending on what they have. 5/16 x 1.5 inches seems like a good size.
I’ll have to retrofit the spacing on the cross pieces, as I took “build it like a deck,” too literally. One table is spaced at 22 inches, and the other, I dunno, it was a long time ago. It’s held up well, without sag, so…
I like the idea of having the side pieces the same level as the top of the ties. Helps keep the dirt in place. On mine, the top of the frame is at the level of the top of the ladder, then is capped by a 2 x 6 on it’s side, that also serves as a bench, and helps prevent Crash’s locomotive from running off the table.
Next question, Dick Smith painted his ladder. Ken uses plastic. Given that I’ll be using the 5/16 thick cedar or redwood, is waterproofing necessary? Wet, then snow/frozen, then wet, then dry and hot in summer. Excellent drainage. How says the jury?
Rick, do you have any trouble bending the 5/16 thick stringers around a curve?
Steve Featherkile said:
Next question, Dick Smith painted his ladder. Ken uses plastic. Given that I’ll be using the 5/16 thick cedar or redwood, is waterproofing necessary? Wet, then snow/frozen, then wet, then dry and hot in summer. Excellent drainage. How says the jury?
Paint will hold the water in nicely so if your wood’s going to rot, the paint will speed it on its way. When you paint something outdoors, you curse yourself to a lifetime of re-painting. Oh, Steve, you’ve already confessed to being lazy, why ruin your reputation? Old barns weren’t painted and they have lasted and lasted. And lasted… Ya got cedar? Redwood? You kidding? NEVER paint that beautiful stuff, in or out! Paint is for girls.
Great minds think alike, John. Thanks.(https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)
Steve,
NO, DON’t PAINT your ladder as has been said, oil it if you feel you must but don’t paint or seal. Best to use a fine gravel like 1/4 minus in and around your ladder as it will drain faster and allow it to air dry between wettings. Getting wet doesn’t rot wood, not being able to dry out causes the rotting.
Bending the 5/16 is easy enough as my tightest curve is about 8 foot. Using 8 foot pieces of strip I lay out my 6 inch blocks so they will fall on a framing member for fastening and extend on the ends for joining the next section. I screw the blocks to one strip in the shop on the work bench using 2 screws per block to eliminate twisting. I then take it to the install location and screw it to the framing matching the curve I want. Next I screw the stripping on the other side of the blocks just using 1 screw.
Craig,
If your still here. What I was trying to say and what I have been doing on the new RR is keeping the side boards at least as high as the TOP of the ties. Making a flat surface across the table top, it doesn’t look as proto as a sloping grade bank of a mainline but it sure as heck is easier to maintain as nothing washes away from the rails.
Rick
Steve,
I have used the ladder system here for 12 yrs using PVC board. The stringers were each 3/4 wide and the spacer blocks/uprights were 1.5" balustrade giving a 3" wide subsurface.
However after RE-READING TWICE BEFORE posting as suggested by the EXPERT.
You are making a “raised outdoor platform” like Dick (who still owes me a peach pie and smoked salmon), Rick and Ken have done.
So my question is your question “do you really need the ladder” ??
My answer is No unless you want highs and lows in the terrain. Perhaps I should ask what is your overall outlook for the area you would like to create on this raised ladder roadbed platform that you are planning?
I’m planning on rebuilding raised platforms/tables myself for certain areas but not planning on using the ladder. The areas I want to replace currently use the very over built Mills methods with PT lumber which works fine but not necessary.
Only my thoughts and they are from a Rooster so the Good Discussion continues .
Thanks, Roos. I haven’t even begun demolition, so I have lots of time to think about this.
My initial thoughts are the same as yours, that the ladder is not necessary. Ken and Rick have made persuasive arguments to the contrary. I have two tables that need revamping. The third uses Fred’s wood top, so that one is done. I might do one of each, and see which works best, or if there is even a noticeable difference.
Rooster and Rick make some very good points
I’ve used ladder construction and Freddy’s method, and I have a friend who uses flat exterior grade plywood tabletops. I’ve just disassembled my pike in preparation for a move. Outdoors I’ll use Freddy’s boards on a frame, but inside at the termini/intense switching and yards I might go with the flat tabletops. These give the ready option of altering the track layout as often as I like. Not that I’m likely to change it much or often, but at the beginning I really like to be able fool around with my options. Ladders are ok for mainline runs among the tulips but they really don’t allow for much flexibility, do they?
All the same, if you’re going to make a wooden ladder, you’ll want to be able to flex your material. I do this for curved trestles, making my stringers of three laminated strips of cedar secured together with 1" drywall screws. I soak them first as follows:
My SECRET TRICK for bending those thin cedar strips: I use a length of black pipe. I plug one end, fill it with water, drop the strips in and stand it all up vertically. I take 'em out when they’re well soaked and flexible. Then I form them up on the bench, where I have drawn the curve and driven finishing nails along that curve to hold the strips. I screw the strips together with 1" screws alternating inside and outside the curve.
I have had a serious problem here with slaters, or sow bugs, also known as St Anthony’s pigs. They love to eat wood, although they seem to leave cedar more or less alone. I’ve also had to deal with paper wasps. They eat wood for the pulp to build their beautiful nests. Finally, I’ve had to deal with carpenter ants. As a result of these challenges, I’ve become a confirmed user of wood preservative, especially on non-cedar woods out there. Cut ends of boards are particularly vulnerable, so if you have similar problems, be sure to coat them.
I’m using 1/4x1-3/4 PVC molding for my ladder rails. It is very flexible and easy to work with, and relatively cheap. Link- Rail Material
For the spacers I’m just cutting a PT 2x4 to pieces 1-3/4 long to match the molding height. This puts the rails under my Llagas NG ties toward the outer edges.
Another reason I had for using a ladder type roadbed and have it up off the foundation was to be able to plant stuff directly on the layout if I wanted to. This has worked out pretty well.
Of course not everybody is into the garden part of it, but I think it just adds to the enjoyment.
I’m surprised that so many people want to use wood instead of the pvc or poly alternatives…
even here in CA we get wood rot, and the redwood and cedar we get is crap compared to what you got 20 years or so ago, they stain the redwood red because you never get the good “heartwood” any more except at specialty ($$$) wood places.
Greg
Yup, I agree, Greg, & I’ll use plastic or PVC on the new build, except indoors where I expect I’ll use Plywood tops for the reasons I stated above. Ken’s foray into Plasticville has worked out very well.
