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  • Topic: LGB 21670 Track cleaning loco

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    • March 6, 2019 9:39 PM EST
      • Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong
         
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      LGB 21670 Track cleaning loco

      Hi, this is my first post here so please forgive any any wrong doings.

      I ran my LGB track cleaning loco in DC mode for a few years. Recently I bought a Sprog 3 to try out DCC with JMRI. JMRI made some suggestions as to what decoder it thought was in the LGB track cleaner. Unfortunately I just accepted one and programmed the track cleaning loco instead of operating it. Now it will only accept basic commands like forward, back, speed and stop. No lights, no track cleaning in DCC or DC. 

      I have tried resetting CV55, it seems to reset, the Loco address returns to 3, but still no lights etc.

      Having looked around various forums I have tried the switches in the cab, looked for picked wires. I wrote to LGB but they replied saying they did not recognize this programmer, (something got lost in translatio I think))

      So I was wondering if anyone knew what model decoder the 21670 loco has ?

      Does anyone have a full list of CV settings for it ?

      Does anyone have a working JMRI file of this loco they would be willing to share ?

      Has anyone else had this problem?

       

      Thank you for taking time to read my post.

       

      Andrew

       

       

    • March 7, 2019 12:39 PM EST
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      I had one, the decoder was a real pain, did not program well in normal modes, I think I used paged or register mode.

      I think a full reset turns things off, i.e. the decoder defaults are not what you want.

      If you get stuck, try on GScaleCentral.com a lot more people use DCC there and that exact loco.

      Did you get a manual for it from one of the usual places? (of course there were several versions of this loco, I think at least 2 different decoders)

      Also, see if you can figure out the date of manufacture, the date code sticker.

      You might want to read up on these things, although I know you just want the solution.

       

      Greg

       

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    • March 8, 2019 8:49 AM EST
      • Eastern Massachusetts
         
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      The LGB cleaning loco has these following versions for digital use.

      First had a DCC ready sticker which meant either the 55020 or 55021 decoder had to be plugged in and switches set to off.

      Next version had a single dcc board with digital built in and has a MZS silver sticker on the bottom.

      Now Marklin makes the digital version and as the reset id cv 55 to 55 I assume it is the Massoth track cleaning built for LGB board.

       

      Note that all LGB engines used address 3 at 14 speed steps as the standard setting.  If you had your system at 28 or 128 speed steps then CV29 must be reprogranmed after a reset to 6 (28/128 steps, analog on).

      This is why the lights do not work!!

       And on another note the 2 engine LGB sets had the engines preset to addresses 2 and 4, not 3.  I do not know it the reset went to 3 or preserved the 2 or 4 in these set locos.

      This post was edited by Dan Pierce at March 8, 2019 8:51 AM EST
    • March 8, 2019 12:40 PM EST
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      Dan, the thing that baffled me was how the 55020 or 55021 controlled the cleaning motor, was it merely on a function output?

       

      Clearly the driving motor was controlled separately from the cleaning motor

       

      Never researched this much, as another mystery was how the speed control knob interfaced with the decoder...

       

      Greg

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    • March 9, 2019 6:56 AM EST
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      Greg yes, a function key controlled the cleaning motor in digital mode.  It was either off or on at full dcc input voltage minus the bridge drop and fet drop.

       

      On all TrackCleaningLocos (TCL) the cleaning motor was tied to track power and forward direction only.  SO, in DCC it spun real fast and the digital control controlled the engine speed.

      In analog/DC mode the knob on the roof controlled the forward engine speed when cleaning, the cleaner ran at track power.

       

      I installed a Zimo decoder in my second TCL (LGB board was bad) and I can clean in both directions and I did tie the cleaning motor via a relay and diode bridge to track power, decoder controls engine speed.  Really cleans nice.

       

       

    • March 9, 2019 12:24 PM EST
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      The track cleaning loco was the first loco that showed me that MRC 6200's rated at 60va were not even close to 2.5 amps or 24 volts

       

      I could barely get the unit to go around a level 10' diameter circle of SMOOTH stainless rail... that's the beginning of learning how VA is a terrible rating system, how certain locos need 24 volts, and the benefits of constant track power.

       

      Surprising that the track cleaning loco can switch the cleaner motor with a function output on those ancient decoders, or is there some additional circuitry to handle the load?

       

      Greg

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    • March 9, 2019 8:24 PM EST
      • Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong
         
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      Greg and Dan,

      Thank you for you kind responses.

      I could not see a date sticker, I bought it new about 4 years ago. It seems to be the latest version, Marklin with analogue digital sticker. I opened it up and tested the fleaning motor which works fine when pwered directly.

      I have tried looking at the settings with my Sprog 3 using a 55021, tried a reset and checked the speed is at 14 steps. The reset strangely did not change the address back to 3. with the 55021 there is no function key displayed on JMRI with Sprog 3. There was post on another forum where the same isdue occured and it came back yo life after taking it apart, pinched wires was the probable cause. Sadly not this time. Im hoping its a programing issue. I will let you know how things work out in week or so.

       

      Andrew

       

    • March 9, 2019 8:36 PM EST
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      I think if it is Marklin, then no chance of the 55020 or 55021.... 

       

      Standard DCC debugging, read the manufacturers id and version number first.

       

      If it is an MFX decoder, then there's more stuff associated with running it on DCC...

       

      Greg

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    • March 9, 2019 9:19 PM EST
      • Chelmsford, MA
         
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      Andrew

       

      This may be totally off base but have you looked over the manual and programmed it per the LGB instructions rather then the JMRI instructions.  The reason I ask is because the LGB decoders are rather different in many ways.

       

      If you purchased it recently and it was new stock the manual is here.

       

      https://www.trainli.com/USER-GUIDE-PDF/New%20LGB%20Engines/lgb-21670-user-guide.pdf

       

      I would first try it on DC to ensure that the switch is set properly with the track cleaning motor on.

       

      For programming the decoder I would start in register mode per the manual.  I can program most in CV mode but best to start with register mode following the manual instructions.  Note that reset is a rather strange sequence.

      In DCC mode F1 is used to control the track cleaning motor but I suspect the switch must also be on.

       

      I believe there are a lot of other CVs not in the manual but I would recommend using only the ones listed.

       

      Hope that helps.

       

      Stan

    • March 9, 2019 10:26 PM EST
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      Stan, did you get the part where he thinks current production, marklin?

       

      The manual you linked is the same referenced earlier (but your link does not work due to the spaces being replaced by %20)

       

      It's also possible, as Dan said, it is a Massoth decoder, not the earlier ones.

       

      Also, I brought up the point it could even be MFX.

       

      So that is why the advice was given to get the manuf and version of the decoder before trying to program more, which did not work.

       

      Greg

      ____________________________________

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    • March 10, 2019 1:32 AM EST
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      Hi, thanks again for your suggestions.

       

      The 21670 is LGB, but made after Marklin bought them. I do have the manual and it does not list the decoder, it does list so e CV numbers which I have tried. Previously it usedto work in DC, but now it just runs with no lights or cleaning in DC or DCC.

      When I set it up with JMRI (that and a Sprog 3 is all I have right now) several decoders were sugested by the set program , including the ones we mentioned earlier. I was hoping this was just a decoder issue but I am beginning to think something else may have go e wrong. The decoder repond to the throttle but that is all.

      if I dont have any luck fixing it I might consider putting a Zimo in it as mentioned earlier. Any suggestions on this are also welcome.

       

      Again, thank you all for your kind help.

       

      Andrew

       

    • March 10, 2019 12:37 PM EDT
      • Chelmsford, MA
         
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      Andrew

       

      A couple of questions.

       

      1) What position is the switch in?  Try the other 2 positions.

       

      2) Have you tried the decoder reset per the LGB manual using register mode.  Set register 6 to a value of 55 and then set register 5 to a value of 55

       

      3) What DCC track voltage are you using?  The LGB cleaning locomotive prefers 22+ volts to work properly

       

      Stan

    • March 10, 2019 4:05 PM EDT
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      AJ in your first post you indicate that JMRI suggested a decoder, and the reset command worked

       

      Later you use the "55 - 55" command and you say the reset did not seem to work.

       

      What decoder definition were you using in your first post?

       

      Greg

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    • March 10, 2019 8:20 PM EDT
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      Greg Elmassian said:

      Stan, did you get the part where he thinks current production, marklin?

       

      The manual you linked is the same referenced earlier (but your link does not work due to the spaces being replaced by %20)

      Worked for me. Firefox. Tom

       

       

      It's also possible, as Dan said, it is a Massoth decoder, not the earlier ones.

       

      Also, I brought up the point it could even be MFX.

       

      So that is why the advice was given to get the manuf and version of the decoder before trying to program more, which did not work.

       

      Greg

       

    • March 10, 2019 8:27 PM EDT
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      Once again ...Welcome Andrew !

    • March 10, 2019 9:57 PM EDT
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      Tom, did you get to the pdf file, or just a main Train-Li page? I use firefox too.

      ____________________________________

      Be sure­ to visit ­my site, l­ots of tec­hnical tip­s and modi­fications,­ and you c­an search ­for topics­ and key w­ords.


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    • March 10, 2019 10:32 PM EDT
      • Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong
         
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      Hi, sorry for the out of sync replies, it’s the Hong Kong time zone.

      Before I posted here I did read up as much as I could find. Since my first post I have followed and tried all suggestions. I do have the original manual and have read it several times :) Perhaps understanding is a different issue :)

      I have tried the three way switch in DCC running / program and analogue. i can only control throttle in DCC and analogu, no lights or cleaning moto. For programming it is advised to turn off the cleaning motor with this switch.

      Before I tried to operate and program using the 18volt Sprog 3 I could run the loco in analogue and everything worked.

      After I messed with the decoder programming no lights no cleaning in any mode. The JMRI program detected the loco and suggested a few LGB / Massoth decoders. i have tried 3 of them, On Board Decoder, 55020 and 55021. I have reset using CV55, but on closer inspection realised although it accepted the command and made changes it did not reset everything. I also tried programing the decoder CV settings from the LGB manual, some settings are listed but the decoder model is not. The speed settings seem correct at 14 steps and it has analogue pass though enabled.

      There is as a thread a while back which listed the same symptoms but that fixed itself after taking it apart and putting back together :) Another issue Someone had was the the three way switch, a loose connection.

      I was wondering if anyone had a JMRI roster of this loco that worked and could let me have a copy so I could try programming mine. I was hoping it was just my own decoder messing that had done this, but I may have done something more serious.

      I don’t think this is a Marklin decoder, it seems to be special one just for this loco that LGB made prior to Marklin’s take over. LGB suport seem not to know anything about it, Massoth have not responded. 

      Thanks again

       

      Andrew

       

       

       

    • March 11, 2019 1:14 AM EDT
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      Have you been able to follow my suggestions from march 7 and the two on the 10th?

       

      Greg

      ____________________________________

      Be sure­ to visit ­my site, l­ots of tec­hnical tip­s and modi­fications,­ and you c­an search ­for topics­ and key w­ords.


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    • March 11, 2019 3:35 AM EDT
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      Greg,

      I have followed all but signing up for the G Scale forum :) I will do that when I return home and not have to use my smartphone to access. 

      I have also visited and read a lot from your very impressive site, a wonderful source of informatio. I previosly ran the loco on analogue at about 14V, it worked fine. I can only 18V on DCC at the moment.

      I also tried resetting CV55 using Cv5 and CV6.

      I will re check the manufacturer ID that came up when I get home on Sunday, I can’t recall what numbers it displayed right now. 

      Thanks again for your patience and very kind help.

       

      Andrew

       

       

      This post was edited by A J at March 11, 2019 3:44 AM EDT
    • March 11, 2019 6:58 AM EDT
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      On all LGB track cleaners, the switch inside is off (0), normal engine (1), track cleaning mode (2).

      You should have 1 selected for programming as the cleaner mode will overload your programmer!!  Also make sure cv 29 is the correct speed step for your programming setup.

      Usually when lights do not work properly it is a speed step mis-match.

       

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