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  • Topic: Lithium Ion Packs and chargers

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    • November 30, 2015 5:31 PM EST
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      Lithium Ion Packs and chargers

      OK I have gotten a step closer in making the mogul mobile. I have installed the RCS-Aus Omega 3v-7 ESC along with the radio RX a on/off switch, and charging jack all from Tony. I have decided to run this at 14.8v. I will be using Lithium Ion packs. What I am wondering is what I need int he way of a charger that plugs into the jack? I have looked over RCS's stuff and Cordless renovations stuff (likely who I will get he batteries and charger from) but I am just thick in the head when it comes to the electronics portion of this thing.

      Does the charger have to be 14.8v specific or can you feed it say 24v. Tony has been helpful but I just don't want to mess anything up at this point and want the right stuff right from the get go.

      ____________________________________
    • November 30, 2015 5:57 PM EST
      • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
         
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      You want a smart charger, one that will supply the proper current and voltage. If you just feed 24 volts into a 14.8 volt battery you will have.....Well, I am glad I am not in the same state as you. A smart charger will take its input voltage, and supply the proper charge voltage and current to the batteries.

      ____________________________________

      Shannon car Shops
      Home of the infamous leg lamp

      I.A.R.R.R. Member #12

      and King Butt Modeler

    • November 30, 2015 6:13 PM EST
      • West Grove, Pennsylvania
         
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      And a smart charger can usually handle different battery types. NiMH, NiCd , Li-on, etc, just in case you get a good deal on another type.

      ____________________________________

      "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --Martin Luther King Jr

    • November 30, 2015 6:23 PM EST
      • Elverta, CA
         
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      Devon,

       

      You have a few choices, but the charger MUST be designed specifically for Lithium Ion batteries. You can either purchase a dedicated voltage specific charger or a charger that works with various voltage batteries. In addition to this decision how you power the charger is a consideration. Chargers can be purchased that use 12VDC and or 120VAC from you home.

       

      Be cognizant of what is called out as a SMART charger, many of these are simply stupid power supplies that rely on the batteries onboard PCM/PCB to terminate charge.

       

      Some modelers choose the voltage/chemistry specific chargers for simplicity, this means a 14.4/14.8V charger can ONLY be used with said voltage batteries! What voltage (12VDC/120VAC) feeds the charger as mentioned above is generally an option.

       

      Many modelers like myself prefer more flexible and truly SMART chargers that universally charge multiple chemistry and voltage chargers.

       

      I'd suggest you do some surfing and share your findings here and we'll have a go at advising you of the pros and cons of said chargers.

       

      Michael

      This post was edited by Michael Glavin at November 30, 2015 6:30 PM EST
    • November 30, 2015 6:27 PM EST
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      That's what I was thinking and is inline with what Tony was telling me. A smart charger for 14.8v then with the right end I can plug straight into the charging jack and charge this thing up?

      ____________________________________
    • November 30, 2015 6:31 PM EST
      • Deer Park, Washington
         
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      Devon, I use the Tenergy TB6AC charger.  It will do... well you can read all about it here.

      ____________________________________

      Not only does my mind wander, sometimes it walks off completely.

       

      Some people try to turn back their odometers.  Not me.  I want people to know why I look this way.  I've traveled a long way, and some of the roads weren't paved.  Will Rogers.

    • November 30, 2015 6:38 PM EST
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      Michael Glavin said:

      Devon,

       

      You have a few choices, but the charger MUST be designed specifically for Lithium Ion batteries. You can either purchase a dedicated voltage specific charger or a charger that works with various voltage batteries. In addition to this decision how you power the charger is a consideration. Chargers can be purchased that use 12VDC and or 120VAC from you home.

       

      Be cognizant of what is called out as a SMART charger, many of these are simply stupid power supplies that rely on the batteries onboard PCM/PCB to terminate charge.

       

      Some modelers choose the voltage/chemistry specific chargers for simplicity, this means a 14.4/14.8V charger can ONLY be used with said voltage batteries! What voltage (12VDC/120VAC) feeds the charger as mentioned above is generally an option.

       

      Many modelers like myself prefer more flexible and truly SMART chargers that universally charge multiple chemistry and voltage chargers.

       

      I'd suggest you do some surfing and share your findings here and we'll have a go at advising you of the pros and cons of said chargers.

       

      Michael

      Cordless Renovations Universal Charger I assume this is the type of thing your talking about. I can see the advantage of this. One charger multiple locos of varying power.

      ____________________________________
    • November 30, 2015 6:43 PM EST
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      Steve Featherkile said:

      Devon, I use the Tenergy TB6AC charger.  It will do... well you can read all about it here.

      That would work. Charges multiple voltage Lithium Ion batteries.

       

      I did have to laugh at the write up. says it has a fast charging mode and a storage mode. then in the warning it says not to leave the charger un-attended during charging. Well I don't know about anyone else but I don't think I have the time to watch my charger while my batteries are in storage for a day/week/month.

       

      this is a step with different chemistry and different voltage. for a few bucks more

      This post was edited by Devon Sinsley at November 30, 2015 6:49 PM EST
      ____________________________________
    • November 30, 2015 7:11 PM EST
      • Elverta, CA
         
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      Devon,

       

      The Cordless Renovation charger will suffice, albeit it would not be my choice.

       

      The Tenergy chargers listed by you and Steve are essentially the same charger, Steve's choice is a dedicated 120VAC input charger while your choice is capable of 12VDC OR 120VAC input voltages. Either of these are good chargers with a lot of flexibility.

       

      The storage component you mention is simply a battery voltage specific value used to charge/discharge your battery for the purpose of storing the battery. Essentially you plug in the battery and select the storage regimen, the charger will terminate when the battery voltage specific value has been reached, disconnect battery and store in a cool place... There are some slight variables herein, BUT typical storage voltage is 40% of capacity and or 3.5V per cell, a four cell battery would be stored at 14.0V.

       

      Michael

       

       

       

      This post was edited by Michael Glavin at November 30, 2015 8:35 PM EST
    • November 30, 2015 10:08 PM EST
      • Deer Park, Washington
         
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      Devon, the T6B, that you referenced, is more expensive, and less functional than the T6BAC.  According to Tenergy's literature, the T6B will not support a lithium ion battery, the lithium chemistry that we commonly use.  I don't recommend its purchase.

      ____________________________________

      Not only does my mind wander, sometimes it walks off completely.

       

      Some people try to turn back their odometers.  Not me.  I want people to know why I look this way.  I've traveled a long way, and some of the roads weren't paved.  Will Rogers.

    • November 30, 2015 10:18 PM EST
      • Elverta, CA
         
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       Steve Featherkile said:

      Devon, the T6B, that you referenced, is more expensive, and less functional than the T6BAC.  According to Tenergy's literature, the T6B will not support a lithium ion battery, the lithium chemistry that we commonly use.  I don't recommend its purchase.

      Steve,

       

      Take another look, I am confident both chargers use the same IC and offer like specifications.

       

      Michael

       

      This post was edited by Michael Glavin at November 30, 2015 10:18 PM EST
    • November 30, 2015 10:44 PM EST
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      PDF users manual

       

      Michael is I believe right. On page one of that manual it states "accept all R/C batteries LiPo, LiIo (Lithium Ion?), LiFe, NiMH, NiCd, Pb"
      and is 6 bucks more. It does have the 12v capability and in practice I think that is the only main difference I can see. Now I would not normally say having the 12v option would mean much since I doubt I would ever charge a train in my vehicle; but if I do decide to "go green" and run my train area on solar power using 12v DC electricity having the 12v charger would be nice. Something to think about.

      ____________________________________
    • November 30, 2015 11:10 PM EST
      • Deer Park, Washington
         
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      OK, thrown off by this.

      Click.

      ____________________________________

      Not only does my mind wander, sometimes it walks off completely.

       

      Some people try to turn back their odometers.  Not me.  I want people to know why I look this way.  I've traveled a long way, and some of the roads weren't paved.  Will Rogers.

    • November 30, 2015 11:22 PM EST
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      it is weird they described it that way instead of how they do in the manual. At least I know you have my bback and are looking out for me.

      ____________________________________
    • December 1, 2015 12:22 AM EST

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      Devon,

      Will be a much better deal for you than the US$89 previously mentioned.

      According to the published specs it will support Li-Ion.

      This post was edited by Tony Walsham at December 1, 2015 12:25 AM EST
      ____________________________________

      Best wishes,
      Tony Walsham

      Remote Control Systems. www.rcs-rc.com/
        Modern technology. Old Fashioned reliability

    • December 1, 2015 1:09 AM EST
      • Elverta, CA
         
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      FWIW:

       

      Li-Po batteries utilize exactly the same charge regimen as Li-Ion batteries.... In fact many Li-Ion batteries offered as multiples 3.7V cell batteries is incorrect, Li-Ion OEM cell specification sheets from Sanyo/Panasonic, Samsung, LG and GP clearly suggest they are 3.6V cells. Yet there are others suggesting 3.7V Li-ion cells, such as Tenergy. So the typical four cell battery comprised of 3.6V cells is a 14.4V battery not a 14.8V battery! Li-Po batteries on the other hand are rated at 3.7V cells. There are MANY Li-Ion battery suppliers that wrap and or rewrap the 18650 cells with their own tube/label, accordingly their specifications are all over the place.

       

      Most chargers differentiate between the Li-Ion and Li-Po cell technologies, providing the appropriate cell termination cut-off voltage charge regimen. Those that are charging their 3.6V four cell batteries with a 14.8V battery factor maybe overcharging the batteries.

       

      Michael

    • December 1, 2015 9:57 AM EST
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      How would one know that for sure when they buy what is advertised as a 14.8v pack such as Tenergry if in reality it should be charged to 14.4v? Or are you politely saying Tenergy is not being forthright and really is always a 14.4v pack regardless to what they advertise. I certainly think I would never really feel the effect of 14.4v versus 14.8v so should I just consider all four cell LiIo to be 14.4v

      ____________________________________
    • December 1, 2015 10:57 AM EST
      • Elverta, CA
         
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      Devon,

       

      I don't have a qualified answer for you... I did some Lithium-Ion cell specification surfing this morning, I note several offerings claiming 3.7V nominal ratings. Once upon a time I was heavily vested in the Lithium Ion offerings working with several battery assemblers in the USA, at that time there were maybe 6 OEM manufacturers offering 18650 cells, all were 3.6V. As I alluded to previously many battery suppliers are wrapping cells with their own tubes/labels that is a FACT. I suppose unscrupulous companies may indeed exaggerate the specifications to one up the competition... That being said Tenergy far as I can research is not an OEM manufacturer, and is based in Fremont California. Again as I alluded to I found a few specifications from OEM's that list their cells at 3.7V nominal.

       

      If it were me, I would assume and charge all my batteries with the 3.6V specification or less... There is NO reason to push the envelope at .1V per cell or .4V for a four cell battery, all things considered it is well documented that charging Lithium cells to the nominal rating is doable, yet short or soft charging to a slightly lower value will increase their respective life cycle notably. Same thing plays out in the discharge mode, running your battery down to allowable voltage values or DOD (depth of discharge) is undesirable and will shorten said life cycle... So just because you maybe able to run an engine for four hours on a single charge is doable there are cons associated with same.

       

      Michael

    • December 1, 2015 11:10 AM EST
      • Vail, Az
         
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      I chose to have faith! I bought my batteries and charger at the same time from the same dealer. One recommended here and elsewhere...

      Well many use AllBattery, but I guess I went to BatterySpace. Years ago I got some neato rechargeable flashlights there... could recharge in my truck while exploring old mines.

      My first packs were 18+v and I dreaded handing the controls to my speed obsessed nephews. I never used the top end... hopefully wiser, I've reduced them to 14.8v.

       

      After reading Michael's warning I looked around AllBattery and the only 3.6v bats were NiCads. Maybe it's an insider's knowledge.

       

      As to putting your batteries in in a teepee shape ... no way; you'll waste space. Rectangles nest best with parallel sides. However most Battery suppliers will configure your package to suit your space.

       

      To the experts; Don't most batteries have an over charge peak?

      John

      ____________________________________

      John

       

      The older I get, the less I know, please don't make me prove it.

       

       

    • December 1, 2015 7:02 PM EST
      • YYC, CANADA
         
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      Back in July there was a thread on RCGroups of which if you read thru,  (gave me anyways),  a better 'appreciation/respect' for rechargables.

       

      And I shared it via my personal mailing list, THE515;

      " ~ For the (rechargable) battery user ;   
      http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2398810&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Click%20here%20to%20check%20out%20our%20stats.&utm_campaign=Sept.%204%20Mass%20RCG
      Suggest ya scroll/pg down to near bottom to start with the "conclusion" !   and then IF interested in more detail review,  pg up to top to read thru !

      {review info excerpted from the latest RCGroups email received on the 4th,  via the forum i signed onto a couple yrs back when researching those 1:24 scale tanks for possible integration into our railway world  ;)   IF you at least watch a portion of the video you will be reminded of how  rechargable battery technology can be 'dangerous'} "

       

       

      doug c

      This post was edited by Doug Cannon at December 1, 2015 7:32 PM EST
      ____________________________________

      " G-Gauge may not RULE, but it  GROWS  on Ya !! "    djc'99

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