Ric said:
Steve,

I’m 60 years old and have been working those Switching puzzles in Model Railroader as long as I can remember, but I can’t tell you I’ve ever really understood what counts as a move. That is why I asked the question. I’ve tried to keep score, but I don’t know if I’ve ever come up with the same count as was published.

Sorry to hijack Bruce’s thread and I’m willing to take this somewhere else, but I think it is worth the discussion.

As far as the “Timesaver”, I get interrupted so many times, I’m just happy to complete the puzzle.

Ric,

Being a certified Delta Hotel, I was just pulling your chain. I, too, wonder about what counts as a switching move. The rules for the original Timesaver says that switching moves do not count, only time does.

Steve,

I know “DH’s” and you are no “DH”.

You said - “The rules for the original Timesaver says that switching moves do not count, only time does.”

Yeah, I know. But J.A. also referenced the least number of moves and that is where I have always been confused. Reference my question in Bruce’s posting. Uncoupling and changing direction I think constitutes a switching move. Now, how about if you use a Kadee uncoupler magnet? Sometimes that takes an extra couple of moves to accomplish gettting a Kadee set for remote uncoupling. So it seems wrong to compare with Kadees and without Kadees.

Agreed. Especially as JA did not use Kadees. I suppose since there does not seem to be any history of what constitutes a move, we could come up with our own rules and see if anybody salutes.

FWIW Since a new posting, if you work the switching games on line only direction change (for actual move of train) constitutes a move. Switch throws and coupling/uncoupling are functions not counted. Because Kadees neccessitate multiple moves to function properly the redundant moves shouldn’t count. In 1:1 operations these moves wouldn’t be preformed.

That sounds simple enough.

Agreed. Besides, I use a screwdriver for hand uncoupling, just like the big boys.

Dave,

That is a good thought and good logic with an example. So we are saying only change in direction consitutes a move? Okay, is there a challenge to that? I’m trying to think of one. Let’s dwell on that for awhile. How does that work with Bruce’s example?

Steve Featherkile said:
Agreed. Especially as JA did not use Kadees. I suppose since there does not seem to be any history of what constitutes a move, we could come up with our own rules and see if anybody salutes.

I was unaware one way or the other. How did they uncouple the original "Timesaver"? I also use the screwdriver method and cut the tangs of off Kadees. Besides it drives Andy C. nuts that I cut them off, instead of bending them up. That has always been reason enough to do it. ;-)

Remember when you uncouple you only pause your move, the same with a switch throw.
Ric I’m going back to reread Bruces’ example.

First up are shunting puzzles with move counters

         http://www.precisionlabels.com/shunt/jpage300.html

Next is Ken’s response

(1) Back up so 112 clears the switch to Brunt Interchange
(2) Uncouple car 112 from 110.
(3) Pull into the team track and clear the switch to McCown Freight.
(4) Back up and pick up car 45 and pull forward.
(5) Back car 45 back onto the main and into Brunt Interchange
(6) Pull back up onto the team track
(7) Back car 112 into McCown Freight
(8) Pull up and back out and couple back up to your train.
(9) Since Mystery looks full we’ll pull up on the main past car 181 and uncouple car 657 from car 112.
(10) Pull up and clear the switch
(11) Back car 112 onto the team track since that track handles the overflow.
(12) Pull out onto the main and couple up to your train and we’re ready to head to Jackson…

Now Ken’s response with notation and some minor changes in count

(1) Back up so 112 clears the switch to Brunt Interchange
(2) Uncouple car 112 from 110.
(3) Pull into the team track and clear the switch to McCown Freight.
(4) Back up and pick up car 45
(5)and pull forward. ----------direction
(6) Back car 45 back onto the main and into Brunt Interchange
(7) Pull back up onto the team track
(8) Back car 112 into McCown Freight
(9) Pull up
(10)and back out and couple back up to your train. -----------direction
(11) Since Mystery looks full we’ll pull up on the main past car 181 and uncouple car 657 from car 112.
since we decided to recouple and move forward this is a move same as if we left the train where it was when we picked up #112 and moved forward
(12) Pull up and clear the switch
(13) Back car 112 onto the team track since that track handles the overflow.
(14) Pull out onto the main
(15)and couple up to your train and we’re ready to head to Jackson… direction

Don’t know if this helps but…

It doesn’t look to me that there is a change of direction between 11 and 12. Am I reading it wrong?

My mistake Ric, cut’s it to 14 move.
Just like move 1 really wouldn’t be there as you would start out clear of the switch.

I agree with Dave about move 1. In reality, since I’d have the switch list in hand, stopping the train before the switch would be my first move, so backing up wouldn’t be necessary. But since that’s where the train was in the diagram, it would have to be done in order to complete the rest of the scenario.

11 and 12 could be combined, since this was an observation on my part and not really a move.

I’d be anxious to see how someone else would handle that scenario. There’s probably a half dozen different ways to do it, that was just the way I would handle it.

Good going Bruce, you really opened up a can of worms on this one…

Maybe this will help:

http://www.precisionlabels.com/shunt/jg3tims0.html

And if it doesn’t, at least it’s fun…

Robert

Ric Golding said:
How did they uncouple the original “Timesaver”?

They used ramps. Here’s a pic I believe to be of one of John Allen’s Timesavers in a museum setting, and just what kind of ramps these are I do not know… But all reports say they used ramps… With acknowledgements to the G&D Yahoo group, and I’m afraid I don’t know where the pic was taken in the first place either. Now you know as much as I do!

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/choochoo_chaboogie/_forumfiles/timesaver.jpg)

Its all “EVIL”, just plain “EVIL”.

Ric Golding said:
Its all "EVIL", just plain "EVIL".

So then, you agree? :lol:

I’ve got a copy of John Allan’s Scoring Paper on file and trying to get my “Tech Support” to get it to a size that will upload. I’d ask Bob, but he’d just think I was doing something else that was evil.

Ric Golding said:
I've got a copy of John Allan's Scoring Paper on file and trying to get my "Tech Support" to get it to a size that will upload. I'd ask Bob, but he'd just think I was doing something else that was evil. ;-)

Oh - do I need to check email ?

Hmmm. It wasn’t too big but had an odd file name with %20 in it. I just renamed it and uploaded here. Grab it if you like.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jrad/_forumfiles/TimeSaver_Scoresheet.jpg)