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  • Topic: "Missing " EBT Flat located in Dubois, PA

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    • June 18, 2020 5:52 PM EDT
      • Candlewood Valley, Connecticut
         
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      "Missing " EBT Flat located in Dubois, PA

      I can't quickly locate the year it was done, however, at least 9 years ago (more likely 20+ years ago) PENDOT did some major work on PA Route 522 through Mt. Union PA.  Prior to that work being done, EBT Flat #106 was resting in Mt Union fitted with standard gauge trucks. This picture of 106 doing standard gauge duty in the Mt. Union yard taken by Philip R. Hasting was posted on Facebook by Kevin Moore...

       

      According to Chris Colemen's website Old Eastie, Flat 106 existed in Mt. Union on standard gauge trucks, but went missing during work on PA Route 522.

       

      Low and behold, Kevin Moore also posted to Facebook these photos of a steel flat car labeled for EBT bearing the number 106 and looking very correct for an EBT steel flat on standard gauge trucks being used as outdoor seating at a restaurant....

       

       

      All of this begs the question of how the heck did an EBT car "disappear" from Mt. Union only to be re-appear years later in Dubois, PA ????  Moving this car even a few blocks would have required either a crane or a low-boy with track. Either one of those operations would be difficult to hide UNLESS there was major road construction happening at the same time.

       

      Note that dual gauge track was removed, and then replaced where it crosses 522 in Mt. Union. Perhaps 106 was 'in the way' and legitimately moved but somehow never was put back.  Gee, imagine that, construction workers bringing things home from the job. Never happens

       

      EDIT to add historical photo credit.

      Second EDIT to fix route #.

      This post was edited by Jon Radder at June 18, 2020 11:08 PM EDT
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    • June 18, 2020 6:18 PM EDT
      • Easton , Massachusetts
         
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      I've come home ( I close out / cleanup ) stone,ladders,plants wood,sand etc.. but no flat car ..hhmmmm

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    • June 18, 2020 6:19 PM EDT
      • Not one of the WannaBe's,
         
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      Not Knowing, but is it possible that it was sold by the then owner of the EBT ? Further thought, maybe moved because of the road work after the standard gauge track was off loaded, then sold as opposed to relocating to another site. Just let it fall off the books as time passed.

      This post was edited by David Marconi,FOGCH at June 18, 2020 6:23 PM EDT
    • June 18, 2020 6:48 PM EDT
      • Candlewood Valley, Connecticut
         
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      Thanks David.  Lots of stuff there to wade through, but it looks like the approvals were coming in for the work in the mid to late 80's.

       

      Oh - I'll fix my typo - I meant to type 522.

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    • June 18, 2020 6:53 PM EDT
      • Candlewood Valley, Connecticut
         
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      Sean McGillicuddy said:

      I've come home ( I close out / cleanup ) stone,ladders,plants wood,sand etc.. but no flat car ..hhmmmm

      My former landlord's late husband was in construction in NYC. When I bought the house and began cleaning up I found all kinds of odd things squirreled away. How about a bundle of 25 axe handles, or those huge diameter ropes you saw hanging in my early basement make-over pics

      Size/weight didn't seem to be an issue for him. There is a piece of "subway" marble in the storage area under my porch that is so big I can't move it!

      This post was edited by Jon Radder at June 18, 2020 6:53 PM EDT
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    • June 18, 2020 6:56 PM EDT
      • Candlewood Valley, Connecticut
         
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      David Marconi,FOGCH said:

      Not Knowing, but is it possible that it was sold by the then owner of the EBT ? Further thought, maybe moved because of the road work after the standard gauge track was off loaded, then sold as opposed to relocating to another site. Just let it fall off the books as time passed.

      Certainly possible it was legitimate.  The current owners have all of the meticulous records kept by the RR even into tourist years. If there is info in there they will find it eventually. Most transfers of stock were, however, well known and documented. This one is the only one where disposition is listed as "missing" by those outside the RR who track such things.

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    • June 19, 2020 6:34 AM EDT
      • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
         
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      Well we can be thankful that this piece of history isn't "missing" as in cut up for scrap, but is "missing" as in preserved somewhere.

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    • June 19, 2020 10:42 PM EDT
      • Missouri, It's like Floodsburg, man
         
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      This is interesting!

    • June 20, 2020 12:13 PM EDT
      • Fort Myers Beach & Annapolis, Florida & Maryland
         
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      Certainly possible it was legitimate.  The current owners have all of the meticulous records kept by the RR

      The owners at the time were/are scrap metal merchants, (and the car has a steel underframe,) so it may have sold it at the time the road work was done. It's not clear their "meticulous" records include what was scrapped, sold, disposed off, bought, since the actual RR was sold to them.

       

      I think it should be returned to EBT!

       

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    • June 20, 2020 12:46 PM EDT
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      I'd need to disagree with that Pete. If it was fairly purchased, and quite possibly with it's present use in mind, the owner has  every right to do with it as he wishes including destroying it if he/she sees fit. IMHOYMMV

    • June 20, 2020 1:01 PM EDT
      • Biglerville, PA
         
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      Maybe the owners of the EBT or the Friends group could offer to build a new seating platform in exchange for the return of the car.

    • June 20, 2020 1:08 PM EDT
      • Candlewood Valley, Connecticut
         
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      David - I think you misunderstood the sentiment in Pete's "it should be returned".  I don't think he means that the present owner should give it back, but that perhaps in the future, when this use is no longer needed, that it come back to EBT rather than be moved yet again or scraped.  There are precious few surviving examples of flat cars remaining and this one is unique in that it served as a standard gauge gondola in Mt. Union.

       

      There is already an effort underway by people associated with the EBTF and FEBT to further examine the car and speak with the current owner whose name is known.

       

      @Pete: Although Kovalchick is a scrap dealer he was careful of what stock he sold off and never scrrped any native rolling stock. True, there may not be records of every disposition, but a lot of people, some outside the RR/scrap dealer have been keeping close tabs on the entire inventory for many years.  The fact that one of these persons list the car as "disappeared during 522 construction" and knowing this same person had close contact with the owners and general manager of the RR at the time, leads me to speculate that the removal was not something the RR or Kovalchick were aware of.

       

      I'm pretty sure we will know the real story shortly.  My guess is that it was commandeered by a collector during the 522 construction, held for a number of years, and then sold to the gentleman who runs the restaurant.  If that turns out to be true, the railroad could make a legal claim for the car, but knowing the people who are in charge today, that's not likely to happen. They are just not that kind of people. And I mean that in a good way.

       

      What makes this a hot topic at this time is that the railroad is sorely in need of flat cars to transport ties and good ballast hoppers for the rebuild. In order to alleviate some of the shortages they have moved hoppers that haven's moved since the 60's and removed the superstructure from the Carowins cars in order to use them as flats.

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    • June 20, 2020 2:51 PM EDT

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      https://doolittlestation.com/index.php

       

      Pretty sure this is where the car currently resides. A lot of interesting cars there ... 

       

      BTW...Don't know if this plays factor but Larry Salone is from DuBois and Kovalchick had locations in Homer City and Indiana,PA which are just south of DuBois.

      Just saying.

      This post was edited by Rooster at June 20, 2020 3:38 PM EDT
    • June 20, 2020 7:42 PM EDT
      • Candlewood Valley, Connecticut
         
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      Thanks Roo.  Yes, that is where it is. Location was mentioned in the Facebook post.

       

      And yes, Indiana is Kovalchicks's and about half way between Mt. Union and Dubois.   Salone probably doesn't figure in as this has been listed missing long before he and EBTPA got involved.  But he should be a suspect just based on his personality!

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    • June 20, 2020 8:42 PM EDT

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      Jon Radder said:

      Thanks Roo.  Yes, that is where it is. Location was mentioned in the Facebook post.

       

      And yes, Indiana is Kovalchicks's and about half way between Mt. Union and Dubois.   Salone probably doesn't figure in as this has been listed missing long before he and EBTPA got involved.  But he should be a suspect just based on his personality!

       

       

       

      I don't do Facebook ....just did a bit of quick digging on the subject as you know I love my history.

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

    • June 21, 2020 10:58 AM EDT
      • Fort Myers Beach & Annapolis, Florida & Maryland
         
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      I'm pretty sure we will know the real story shortly.  My guess is that it was commandeered by a collector during the 522 construction, held for a number of years, and then sold to the gentleman who runs the restaurant.  If that turns out to be true, the railroad could make a legal claim for the car, but knowing the people who are in charge today, that's not likely to happen.

      Jon, I do wonder about the present owners (EBTPA) of the Mt Union yard. Were they sold the yard and all the rolling stock parked on it? In which case they might have more of a claim.

       

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        Pete

    • June 21, 2020 2:14 PM EDT
      • Candlewood Valley, Connecticut
         
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      Pete Thornton said:

      I'm pretty sure we will know the real story shortly.  My guess is that it was commandeered by a collector during the 522 construction, held for a number of years, and then sold to the gentleman who runs the restaurant.  If that turns out to be true, the railroad could make a legal claim for the car, but knowing the people who are in charge today, that's not likely to happen.

      Jon, I do wonder about the present owners (EBTPA) of the Mt Union yard. Were they sold the yard and all the rolling stock parked on it? In which case they might have more of a claim.

       

      Hi Pete -  According to information I read back when the EBTPA made their purchase; it was only the land and operating rights on the rails as far south as the concrete arch bridge over Augwick creek. Kovalchick retained title to all rail and rolling stock. When the EBTF purchased the railroad from Kovalchick, it included all of the original roiling stock in Mt. Union plus track rights North of the bridge (Kovalchick still owns the rail). There has yet to be an announcement of any agreement or talks between the EBTPA and the EBTF and I suspect there will not be for quite some time. The EBTF is concentrating on Rockhill Furnace and the track to the picnic grove.  I suspect after that, they will work to open the rail south to Pogue Bridge which is the first major obsticle south of Rockhill needing extensive work.  In the mean time, it is rumored that Salone and the EBTPA are behind on their mortgage payments and facing default. Should they default title would revert back to Kovalchick at which time the EBTF would probably negotiate purchase.

       

      A little more research of Dr. Doolittle's property in Dubois, it appears that he is the collector, assembling a fairly large inventory of cars on the property, many of which are being used as restaurants and a brewery. Knowing this, my theory changes a bit. I now suspect that Doolittle, as a collector himself,  was the original receiver of the car. Whether or not the transfer was legitimate is yet to be determined.

       

      BTW - for everyone following along this is all speculation. No facts, including verification that this is EBT 106, have been made public on the subject. 

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    • June 21, 2020 2:19 PM EDT
      • Candlewood Valley, Connecticut
         
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      I'm not sure how that Red October clip relates, but every time I see it come up on TV I watch it again!

       

      You aren't missing much on Facebook. I am only there to keep in touch with my family and, unfortunately, to impulse buy trains stuff in the swap groups!

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    • June 22, 2020 10:13 AM EDT
      • Candlewood Valley, Connecticut
         
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      Some fresh information from Chris Coleman, the author of the Old Eastie website...

      "I saw this car once in Mount Union in 1997 during my first full exploration of the yard. It was on the lone spur in the boney area and was covered with vines to the point only one corner could be seen. I could see that it was on standard gauge arch-bar trucks, just as shown here. The car disappeared in 1998 when the 522 bypass was built. There were rumors it had been cut in half and was stored someplace, in WV maybe. Astounding to see it pop up 22 years later like this."

      Another comment said there were rumors of the car cut in half resting in a scrap yard in Bedford, PA.

       

      If it's true that it was cut, then making it operational some day would be a major undertaking and probably not worth the effort.

       

      New theory: Perhaps because it had standard gauge trucks Kovalchick thought it was a standard gauge car, not native to the RR. Then when 522 work was done PENDOT asked to have it moved and was told to just get rid of it.

       

      We will probably never know the real story, but it's good that it was located. Just another in a long line of EBT equipment that has migrated across the country since 1956.

      This post was edited by Jon Radder at June 23, 2020 8:09 AM EDT
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