Hopefully this will not start a flame war as much as I don’t care for kitties.

This question was raised, and start another topic suggested, in another posting. so anyone like to add?

Craig Townsend said:
I’m not saying that I wouldn’t finish the build, it’s just a thought process to determine what’s good enough. Will I be willing to except a misaligned beam, or a complete part missing knowing that I have enough information on hand to build it correctly? Is there an excuse of I don’t have the right tools, or space so I should be excepting less of myself or am I driving myself to prefection? Is this the best that I can do at this time with my modeling skills? I don’t think so. I think I can do better, but in the rush to build something I’ve put aside high standards and have accepted below par work. Maybe I’m just to analabout everything… I thought that this might spark an interesting conversation among the members here about modeling standards and what we as an individual are willing to accept.

My first comment would be it depends on the subject being modeled to me.

I always try to finish my build. After all, I do enjoy the build a LOT. I would hate to deprive myself of the pleasure.

There’s lots of times when things don’t go right. When that starts happening, I stop what I’m doing. I don’t stop the build, but I will take a break, if only to think of other ways I could accomplish what I want. I may work on another portion of the build just to give my brain a rest and tackle something different.

Sometimes I’ll come here and just post what I have so far and hope that somebody has some ideas. Often it’s another idea that prompts me to come up with an alternative. I won’t have followed the suggestion, but the suggestion made me see another way to get it done.

Sometimes I just realize that perfection won’t matter. Oh, I forgot to paint the underside of this part that no one will ever see (but I’ll know!) Or there’s some solder blobs that show up in my picture. Heh, take another picture that hides them. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif)

I struggle with this as I suspect every modeler does. There is a constant struggle with current ability, whether talent or equipment limited, and knowing one can do better mixed with desire to get a project completed. On one hand if you accept less than personal perfection (this is subjective based on self-preception) then you let yourself down. On the other hand if you obsess about perfection and never finish because your burdened with redoing or starting over then you let yourself down as well. So me personally I do the best I can at the time and accept the mistakes as they come and learn from them and make every attempt to make the next one better.

I suppose much of ones personal standards are based on the desire to model or the desire to run trains which is also persoanlly subjective. The guy who likes to run trains more than model them maybe very happy with the ten foot rule. A guy that doesn’t have a foot of track and doesn’t care to run trains might be more apt to focus on the details. Everyone else falls in between.

The one thing it must be is personal. It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks you have to be happy at the end of the day.

Dave and Craig,

Our modeling should be a lobor of love to one’s own standard and abilities. It was brought up in another thread commenting on Mik’s abilities and standards. Mik built the best model he could with the materials on hand and the abilities he possessed. There are those who could have said his models were crude and others that would have complimented his efforts. We have a full spectrum of folks here from the deep pocketed folks who can afford the capital to pay the best to do their bidding for them to the folks like Mik to every point in between. For my money, so long as YOU are happy with YOUR model, no one else matters. I am a mediocre modeler at best, there are certainly far better here. I strive to at some point be as good as them. My motto with any thing in life - 'Do the best job you can with the tools and materials you have." As far as sub standard work, I am certain there are those high level modelers here who look at their past projects and consider what they might have done differently or better. Skills improve as practice moves forward.

My tuppence worth.

What Bob said.

Two points I completely respect from Bobs post in regard to others. Find modelers who’s work you admire and stive to achieve their level, not because they are better than you but because you want to be better for yourself.

The second point is that I am willing to bet the very best modeler we have on this site (whoever that maybe) I am willing to bet can show you every flaw in every model they have ever built and continue to build. The reason they are good at what they do is they understand their limitations and achieve to improve upon them. Never accept your current ability as good enough, at the same time don’t let kowing you can be better keep you from trying to do so.

No offense taken, and when I made my first post, I questioned if I should start a new thread or keep it on the original build. If we can keep this civil, I think we can all learn something.

This was my original post.

I’ve been reading Mike Cougill’s blog recently about his experiences trying to scratchbuild a PS 5344 boxcar car in P:48. He has published a short guide on the subject

http://www.ostpubs.com/the-missing-conversation/

A few selected blog posted

http://www.ostpubs.com/why-are-we-so-narrow-minded/

http://www.ostpubs.com/a-sneak-preview-of-tmc-11/

This converstation about personal modeling standards has made me really rethink the progress of this build so far. I haven’t physically touched the build in over a month now due to time constrants, and I’m doubtful that I’ll get back to it until the middle of March. Up until now I’ve only posted pictures of what looks good, and not the mistakes I’ve made. For instance, I’ve built 3 centersills already, 3 or 4 sets (I lost count) of crossbearers, 2 sets of subflooring, and created tons of scrap styrene. I’ve made errors that I’ve tried to justify by saying “that’s okay, it will get covered up in paint, or the prototype likely was bashed/torn up here so it doesn’t matter”. Since I have sat on the model for a month now, I’m looking back on it and seeing all those mistakes once again. I’m ready to scrap everything build so far and start verison 3.0.

What’s wrong? Nothing per say, but it’s the little errors that creep into the build. I don’t think I’ll tell my wife that my $100 worth of styrene has been wasted and now I need to buy even more, but is scratchbuilding about merely building something that hasn’t been made before, or is it an exercise in expanding our knowledge base and becoming better modelers?

Thoughts, comments?

I think it’s counter-productive to talk about perfection because there is no such thing, especially in a hobby; it’s a set-up for failure. I think I generally strive for high standards, but, as I said in my post about getting track down and genuinely enjoying the sight and sound of trains running, “It’s AMAZING … how much I was able to accomplish once I stopped trying to be George Selios, John Allen, and Bruce Williams Zaccagnino all wrapped up in one … and imaging all the while I had the combined budgets of Tom Miller and Rod Stewart!”

http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/23057/no-more-mister-nice-guy?page=1

I would say its really up to how much effort you are willing to put into it. Some folks (like me) are perfectly happy with “making do” IOWs geting something to a certain level of detail that we can enjoy living with. Others cannot except anything other than absolute miniature perfection down to the last nut bolt rivet coalpile and scrap marks on the footplate as recorded on June 16, 1957 at 3:32pm.

Making do:

Personally while I marvel at the folks who can do that level of perfection I am also completely aware that for myself, I do not have anywhere NEAR the patience (or OCD) to build something to that level of attention, I’d just get bored. I want it done quickly, I’m not prepared to spend the next 17 years building it perfect.

Spending 17 years:

So its really up to the individual, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

Bruce Chandler said:

I always try to finish my build. After all, I do enjoy the build a LOT. I would hate to deprive myself of the pleasure.

There’s lots of times when things don’t go right. When that starts happening, I stop what I’m doing. I don’t stop the build, but I will take a break, if only to think of other ways I could accomplish what I want. I may work on another portion of the build just to give my brain a rest and tackle something different.

Sometimes I’ll come here and just post what I have so far and hope that somebody has some ideas. Often it’s another idea that prompts me to come up with an alternative. I won’t have followed the suggestion, but the suggestion made me see another way to get it done.

Sometimes I just realize that perfection won’t matter. Oh, I forgot to paint the underside of this part that no one will ever see (but I’ll know!) Or there’s some solder blobs that show up in my picture. Heh, take another picture that hides them. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif)

First off, thanks for all the quick responses, I hope I can answer them all!

Bruce,

I too have a at least a half a dozen projects stalled for various reasons; interest, room, lack of desire to work on it, etc but I think your right. We should be striving to at least finish are builds. For the past 4+ years it’s been really taxing on my not to have a dedicated space to have my modeling bench, and only having access to certain tools. But I’m trying new techniques when I can, and trying to be positive about everything.

For instance I started my GP30 detailing project but got off track because of something as simple as drilling grap irons. I don’t have access to my drill press and it’s associated X/Y table, and every attempt that I tried by hand to make a drilling jig, my grap iron holes came out uneven. I have to rethink the approach with what I have and I just haven’t done it. Because I can’t do it right, I’m not willing to do it at all. This equals project stalled!

Does perfection matter? I think the answer to that is the key to what Mike is discussing in his blog (see earlier post for the links).

When I build I strive for the best I can do.

Does it have to be an exact replica? NO.

Does it need to be as close to an exact replica as possible? YES, with limitations. I make a facimile of a detail, but I don’t create threaded rod and working nuts to secure it to the model, even though that is how the prototpe did it. Nor can I run fluids through my piping.

I would like to say that all my pieces in any build I do are exact miniatures of the real thing, but I do not build with the same tools they use for their build. They use a CNC now for cutting, I don’t own one , but I do have a sharp knife and a good straight edge. So plus or minus .00" in accuracy.

Bob “IA3R#7” Cope said:

Dave and Craig,

Snip…

My motto with any thing in life - 'Do the best job you can with the tools and materials you have." As far as sub standard work, I am certain there are those high level modelers here who look at their past projects and consider what they might have done differently or better. Skills improve as practice moves forward.

My tuppence worth.

I don’t think it’s right either to judge someone elses modeling ability either. I too thought that Mik’s builds were very creative for the abilities and material that he had on hand. I wouldn’t say to anyone that sucks, your a horrible modeler. Even though I’ve been in the hobby for 15 years I would call myself a beginner, and continually am trying to try new skills.

How do we measure our best jobs that we can do? Is it reflecting back on our builds with others, asking for pointers, redoing something untill your satisfied?

Vic Smith said:

I would say its really up to how much effort you are willing to put into it. …Snip…

Personally while I marvel at the folks who can do that level of perfection I am also completely aware that for myself, I do not have anywhere NEAR the patience (or OCD) to build something to that level of attention, I’d just get bored.

So its really up to the individual, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

Vic,

I think your a good example of someone being satisfied with “making do” because you know that is your personal limit, but I’d be willing to guess that evry time you make something new your streching your modeling skills by trying something new. Ex- Your transformation of the cardboard box! I think that is the point that I’m wanting to get at. How do we strectch our abilities and improve as modelers without moving to the level of insanity that paralzes us into not doing anything?

Craig Townsend said:

Vic Smith said:

I would say its really up to how much effort you are willing to put into it. …Snip…

Personally while I marvel at the folks who can do that level of perfection I am also completely aware that for myself, I do not have anywhere NEAR the patience (or OCD) to build something to that level of attention, I’d just get bored.

So its really up to the individual, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

Vic,

I think your a good example of someone being satisfied with “making do” because you know that is your personal limit, but I’d be willing to guess that evry time you make something new your streching your modeling skills by trying something new. Ex- Your transformation of the cardboard box! I think that is the point that I’m wanting to get at. How do we strectch our abilities and improve as modelers without moving to the level of insanity that paralzes us into not doing anything?

We try one new method per build

Dave Marconi said:

I make a facimile of a detail, but I don’t create threaded rod and working nuts to secure it to the model, even though that is how the prototpe did it.

Dang it you had to say it (and thank you for doing so). Here I am post MIK looking at jumping back into my mogul build and next on the list is the tender trucks which I very much want to build prototypically with tiny threaded rod and real nuts. But honestly the only reason I want to do this is to see if I can. And who is to say I am wrong or right, or that Dave is wrong or right for not wanting to, or Vic for not having the desire to reach that level at all. Only ourselves. I definetly lean toward the 17 years spectrum but have complete respect for VICs pizza layout and admire his work in such small space. Good modelers are good modelers they jsut model different things for different reasons. Again its what you want to do that matters.

I love this site because, other than a relatively few accpetions, we here make room for everyone and support each others work for what it is and not what we think it should be. We really are a great bunch that way.

Craig Townsend said:

Vic Smith said:

I would say its really up to how much effort you are willing to put into it. …Snip…

Personally while I marvel at the folks who can do that level of perfection I am also completely aware that for myself, I do not have anywhere NEAR the patience (or OCD) to build something to that level of attention, I’d just get bored.

So its really up to the individual, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

Vic,

I think your a good example of someone being satisfied with “making do” because you know that is your personal limit, but I’d be willing to guess that evry time you make something new your streching your modeling skills by trying something new. Ex- Your transformation of the cardboard box! I think that is the point that I’m wanting to get at. How do we strectch our abilities and improve as modelers without moving to the level of insanity that paralzes us into not doing anything?

The only someone will ever find that out is to just try it, see how far they get. I always say start with something simple like a freight car or a shed.

Dave,

You might try one new thing each build, but does everyone? Personally, I don’t think I do, or at least think that I try soemthing new each build. So maybe that is what I’m trying to get with my Snow Dozer build. Try something new, but do it to perfection not just to “okay that looks good, I’ll try better next time”. Why not try something new and work on it until you get it right. Than that new skill is learned, which builds on the next skill.

All well and good, but if you note that a piece of underframe is cut crooked where it butts against another member of the frame but it does not take from the integrity of the build why redo it?

And doing one new technique or process per build , adds to your skill level. I didn’t use any metal on my first few builds, but I tried it after a few builds and then only a bit of minor soldering

Dave Marconi said:

All well and good, but if you note that a piece of underframe is cut crooked where it butts against another member of the frame but it does not take from the integrity of the build why redo it?

And doing one new technique or process per build , adds to your skill level. I didn’t use any metal on my first few builds, but I tried it after a few builds and then only a bit of minor soldering

Because if you don’t redo it, you aren’t learning the reason why you cut it crooked in the first place…

Say you cut something that needs to be at a 90 degree, but you square the piece off, mark it and cut it. It looks close (say 88 or 89 degrees) that it works and you can’t tell the difference. But you still haven’t learn how to make a 90 degree cut. You just learned how to make a 88 or 89 degree cut by accident. To me that’s the simple reason. Then next time I need a 90 degree cut, I know I have learned that skill to perfection and maybe next time I’ll need a 90 degree cut or a 50 degree cut, but I’ll know and understand the technique and method to obtain that cut. That old saying “measure twice cut once”, but what if you don’t know how to measure in the first place? I realize that this is a simplified thought process, but expand upon it.

You are going past anal now on me Craig. If I cut one piece crooked , but nine pieces perfect I don’t need to re-learn how to make a straight cut. I will accept the slight error and move on. Like I said, I’m not working with a computer i’m using hand tools.

Dave Marconi said:

You are going past anal now on me Craig. If I cut one piece crooked , but nine pieces perfect I don’t need to re-learn how to make a straight cut. I will accept the slight error and move on. Like I said, I’m not working with a computer i’m using hand tools.

But you are to the point that you know how to make those 9 perfect pieces. I was just using that as an example. Substitute anything that you presently don’t know how to do and then tell me that you would except less than perfect?