OK so my prototype railroad supposedly did not use air brakes of any sort on the rolling stock. Only on one loco and all the tenders were Eames systems. Pictures of flat cars and box car would confirm this as you don’t see any hoses. However the coaches do seem to have hoses and I came across a photo of one of the cabooses, a converted box car, that has not one but two hoses.

Here is said caboose with two hoses and the flat with none

Now interestingly every picture of a mixed train shows the cabooses or coaches in back. First why would the caboose have two hoses and how would vacuum breaks work when the cars in the middle do not have hoses to connect them to the vacuum system? Either they are there for show and do not use the breaks, or the rolling stock all have phantom hoses we can’t see or they run a hose back to the cars that have hoses only when they are in a mixed train. None of which seems feasible.If running strictly a passenger service then I could see it but not mixed trains. Now the time tables list separate passenger trains and freight runs however there are several pictures of what must be mixed specials.

Any thoughts?

Was this car original to the railroad? If not, it could be leftover from the previous owner–maybe air/vacuum on one, and steam heat on the second. This car resembles “market cars” I’ve seen on other railroads–basically express or produce cars. In most cases, these were right behind the loco, so steam heat would be easy to get if the loco were so equipped. If it came second hand and none of the locos were equipped with steam heat, then (given the cold climate of your prototype) the stove would be a necessary addition.

If it was built/converted by your railroad, I’m at a complete loss.

Later,

K

Kevin Strong said:

Was this car original to the railroad? If not, it could be leftover from the previous owner–maybe air/vacuum on one, and steam heat on the second. This car resembles “market cars” I’ve seen on other railroads–basically express or produce cars. In most cases, these were right behind the loco, so steam heat would be easy to get if the loco were so equipped. If it came second hand and none of the locos were equipped with steam heat, then (given the cold climate of your prototype) the stove would be a necessary addition.

If it was built/converted by your railroad, I’m at a complete loss.

Later,

K

No record that I have come across show them building their own rolling stock. I wouldn’t rule it out though. Likely not. And there were at least two separate purchases the original in 1886 and a second purchase in 1887. Maybe in one purchase the equipment was equipped and in the other it was not. So maybe it was on there but not used. I do not believe they had steam heat as all of the cabooses and coaches have stoves.

Could that hose be a cable? Did they use link and pin couplers?
There seems to be some type of coupler on the end of that caboose but there also seems to be bumpers jutting out from the end beam.

What RR are you modeling? That would help in answering your question

Noel

They are definitely link and pin. What would the purpose of this cable be for? In case of uncoupling? If so they are not present on the freight equipment. The cabooses most assuredly have couplers. In every photo of the mixed trains they are before the coaches in the line up. I assume the coaches are always last to get them farthest away from the smoke. A typical mixed train scenario is the locomotive, tender, one or two freight cars, the caboose then one or two of the coaches. I say typical I am making a lot of assumptions because there are few pictures of this railroad and I am putting pieces together. It really is a crap shoot on what they did for typical.

Noel Crawford said:

What RR are you modeling? That would help in answering your question

Noel

Noel,
Iit is a very small obscure narrow gauge in North Idaho. The Coeur d’Alene Railway and Navigation Company. Operated from 1886 to 1898. The first two locos were bought in 1886 from a small Texas railroad, the next was purchased from Utah and Northern in 1887. And the fourth loco was purchased brand new from Baldwin in 1890. With these purchases I assume rolling stock was also purchased. I have no record of stuff being built on site.

Don’t you guys know HEP cables when you see them!

Devon I found the picture your looking at (online) however it is not zoomed in like yours is. Perhaps the un-zoomed pic might tell a story. Did they use cables to pull cars on a parallel track like they used poles ? Could it possibly have a connection with the steamboat loading (I doubt it but just thinking). I know the CVRR used to use rope and mules to pull cars across a bridge. However they certainly look like hoses.

Drop your coaches on the main, do your switching, add the coaches and be off. In a town the coaches wait at the station while cars are switched. Mixed locals were rarely ‘special’

Kinda looks like camp cars in the little pic. Used to house workers on the river. Could be hoses coiled on the end for water hook ups back in the yard.

The passenger car is farther down and has a clerestory top.

John

David Russell said:

Don’t you guys know HEP cables when you see them!

Devon I found the picture your looking at (online) however it is not zoomed in like yours is. Perhaps the un-zoomed pic might tell a story. Did they use cables to pull cars on a parallel track like they used poles ? Could it possibly have a connection with the steamboat loading (I doubt it but just thinking). I know the CVRR used to use rope and mules to pull cars across a bridge. However they certainly look like hoses.

Yep that is the picture. I don’t think they pulled anything around by rope or cable. Could have but don’t think so. the picture your looking at it the second landing that was moved farther down river after they built a bigger boat. Anyway. There was a wye track a few miles up river where they would turn the loco and then back the mess down to the boats. As you see here there is a double set of tracks and they pull right along side the boat. I am pretty sure it is all done by the loco.

Also even if they were cables why would there be cables on some and not on others? I am thinking they are part of a purchase from a railroad that had them and when they got to the CR&N they just weren’t used. That is what I am guessing at this point. Not one picture I have of freight stock shows a hose (cable). So far only this caboose and one of two of the coaches shows up with them.

With the vintage of that narrow gauge railroad, and the way the brake wheel is mounted on the flat car, I would venture a guess that for at least part of its existence they didn’t have any automatic breaks. That railroad ceased operation before the railroad safety and appliance act was adopted, so they didn’t have to have automatic couplers nor automatic breaks.

Those items on the caboose do look like hoses, but, hoses usually dangle when disconnected, they aren’t usually looped back to the car like that. My reference book doesn’t state if that railroad used any kind of automatic breaks, so that’s no help.

As for the purchase of rolling stock, I would not assume that rolling stock was purchased at the same time locomotives were purchased. Many companies produced narrow gauge rolling stock, but not usually the locomotive builders. Small railroads usually had to spread out their purchases.

John Caughey said:

Drop your coaches on the main, do your switching, add the coaches and be off. In a town the coaches wait at the station while cars are switched. Mixed locals were rarely ‘special’

Kinda looks like camp cars in the little pic. Used to house workers on the river. Could be hoses coiled on the end for water hook ups back in the yard.

The passenger car is farther down and has a clerestory top.

John

John these are the cabooses for sure. There is one present almost always. I would have to look but I can only think of one picture where one is not present. There are interesting articles about how they used to use the “cabooses” for passenger traffic at times. We have identified four of them to date. There is documentation of there being cabooses that are converted box cars. Now they might have been used in a previous life as a camp car but there is little doubt that they are being used by my RR as cabooses. The guy who started this railroad was a cheap SOB and would never have sprung for real cabooses if he could avoid it. lol.

They very well could have served both purposes also. I’d buy that for a dollar.

And as for using the term special I have, well I use it lightly. I believe they did what they needed to do and weren’t to concerned with the formality of freight verses passenger service. Though they were listed in the time table as such I have a feeling reality was much different.

David Maynard said:

With the vintage of that narrow gauge railroad, and the way the brake wheel is mounted on the flat car, I would venture a guess that for at least part of its existence they didn’t have any automatic breaks. That railroad ceased operation before the railroad safety and appliance act was adopted, so they didn’t have to have automatic couplers nor automatic breaks.

Those items on the caboose do look like hoses, but, hoses usually dangle when disconnected, they aren’t usually looped back to the car like that. My reference book doesn’t state if that railroad used any kind of automatic breaks, so that’s no help.

As for the purchase of rolling stock, I would not assume that rolling stock was purchased at the same time locomotives were purchased. Many companies produced narrow gauge rolling stock, but not usually the locomotive builders. Small railroads usually had to spread out their purchases.

David,

When I meant purchased at the same time I meant as used equipment. Only one loco was purchased new. So my assumption was that there was one purchase, probably from a borker, at the beginning that included two locos and at least some rolling stock. In 1886 they recieved two locos and they almost imediatly began making short runs to the first city. One loco probably served as a construction loco and the other a service loco. In 1887 they bought a third used loco and the railroad was almost at it is full length. I believe persoanlly this is when they picked up the coaches at least. I also believe this RR had some deep pockets. Aty this point the CDA mining district was fast becoming the worlds largest Silver and lead producer. And there was no way to get the ore out. So some serious people had interest in getting this thing running. With that said they also were cheap and did not spend money on anything they didn’t need. When this RR went into recievership it was in almost complete shambles and was run into the ground. So who knows.

On of my missions in life is to find purchase records. I have a lead on the minutes of the Board from its beginning days. They are in Minessota and I hopefully will get to see them this spring and I am hoping it answers my questions.

Maybe I am over thinking this. Maybe they are coiled back on themselves because they aren’t used so they are tied up out of the way. This would by far be the most logical thing at this point. It is really the only reasonable explanation at this point. I am almost certain of the used nature of the equipment, knowing that automatic breaks are not required means if I don’t have to spend money on it I wont, it takes care of the problem of the freight stock not having hoses, and how the breaks on the rear cars were hooked up to the locomotive when the middle cars don’t have hoses (they weren’t), and my understanding that they did not use breaks.

So it is reasonable to believe that they have hoses but they just didn’t use them and there was no need to remove them, so they left them.

OK…this is exactly why I don’t get wrapped up into this stuff. Last time I got involved in history was with the old RR’s of Perry County PA and it took me a couple weeks to walk away from that!

What is the possibility that they are electricity cables? Before you say no read this…and yes I know we are not talking about the Oregon RR and Navigation Co. but are we?

Henry Villard, president of the Oregon Railroad and Navigation Company, had attended Edison’s 1879 demonstration. Villard quickly became impressed and requested Edison install his electric lighting system aboard his company’s new steamer, the Columbia. Although hesitant at first, Edison relented and agreed to Villard’s request. Following most of its completion in May 1880, the Columbia was sent to New York City, where Edison and his personnel installed *Columbia’*s new lighting system. Due to this, the Columbia became Edison’s first commercial application for his incandescent light bulb. The Edison equipment was eventually removed from Columbia in 1895.

Edit because perhaps they may be early HEP cables after all …

They used men to set and release the brakes. They would know the road and when to act. Whistles also directed them. All the old photos show men on the cars. Brakemen…

John

I’m still thinking they are cables used to attach to and pull either special equipment or equipment that didn’t have the link and pins. Maybe they were used as an Idler car when it came to moving a few things here and there on a siding or interchange.
It was noted the owner of this RR was a cheap sob so when he bought used equipment he might not have been in a big rush to standardise it.

If they are hoses than maybe they hooked up that caboose to the coaches and had it positioned behind the engine?

David Russell said:

OK…this is exactly why I don’t get wrapped up into this stuff. Last time I got involved in history was with the old RR’s of Perry County PA and it took me a couple weeks to walk away from that!

What is the possibility that they are electricity cables? Before you say no read this…and yes I know we are not talking about the Oregon RR and Navigation Co. but are we?

Henry Villard, president of the Oregon Railroad and Navigation Company, had attended Edison’s 1879 demonstration. Villard quickly became impressed and requested Edison install his electric lighting system aboard his company’s new steamer, the Columbia. Although hesitant at first, Edison relented and agreed to Villard’s request. Following most of its completion in May 1880, the Columbia was sent to New York City, where Edison and his personnel installed *Columbia’*s new lighting system. Due to this, the Columbia became Edison’s first commercial application for his incandescent light bulb. The Edison equipment was eventually removed from Columbia in 1895.

Edit because perhaps they may be early HEP cables after all …

While this railroad at least has some peripheral ties to Villard through his dealings with NPRR I don’t think the electric light is one of them. First no evidence of a generator on the locos. or anywhere else for that matter. Second I am not sure the Coeur d’Alene Mining District, better known now as the Silver Valley, had electric lights in 1986 let alone 1886. They are kinda backwoods ya know. In all seriousness your theory even if we were to entertain it does not hold water because there are no electric cables on the rolling stock so if the power was being generated at the loco then it would need cables to get it to the cars. For the same reason t doesn’t make sense for the breaks it doesn’t make sense for the electricity. The electrified car would be in the back with not connection to the loco. If they were to make their own power (was this even possible back them) then there would be no need for cables at all hence the question of why they exist in the first place.

Unless I am missing something, I don’t think that is it. As for avoiding the history part of it well I am sort of stuck. I am writing a book on the subject so I am sort of bound to it. Not to mention this is what I am obsessed with. I love this little railroad and trying to unlock its secrets.

John Caughey said:

They used men to set and release the brakes. They would know the road and when to act. Whistles also directed them. All the old photos show men on the cars. Brakemen…

John

John,

Yes exactly. This is exactly how I understand the operation of this railroad. This is why I assume it is never without a caboose also. I believe completely that they ran on the principle of man power to apply the breaks. There is a small history of run away cars on this road.

So the why are we seeing vacuum hoses on some of the rolling stock then?

Todd Haskins said:

I’m still thinking they are cables used to attach to and pull either special equipment or equipment that didn’t have the link and pins. Maybe they were used as an Idler car when it came to moving a few things here and there on a siding or interchange.
It was noted the owner of this RR was a cheap sob so when he bought used equipment he might not have been in a big rush to standardise it.

If they are hoses than maybe they hooked up that caboose to the coaches and had it positioned behind the engine?

Todd I cant rule out the cable idea. While I know of no reason they would need to do this, it certainly doesn’t mean they didn’t need to do it, and I am in the dark about it. It would not be the only thing I am in the dark about. I certainly have more unanswered question than answered ones. One thing about this theory would be tha this is the reason the cabooses have them because it would be here the workman would be to manipulate the cable thing. That makes sense. I will file that away.

Now the hose thing your onto is not very plausible with the available information which is scant. My reasoning for saying this is that in every single picture I have of this railroad there is a preferred order when it comes to mixed trains. Loco, tender, freight stock, caboose, then coaches; thus putting everything with hoses farthest away fro the source of the vacuum. Honestly this was my first thought also. That for the safety of the passengers the equipment that carried them had breaks and to heck with the rest. but the problem then is the consists would have to be rearranged to be loco, tender coaches/caboose then freight stock and photo evidence just doesn’t support it.