Large Scale Central

A question of scale and gauge

Which of these cars are the correct scale and gauge?

Answer: Both of them.

1:32 40’ SG Accucraft box car and 1:20.3 40’ CM Standard Gauge Boxcar, riding on NG trucks.

Both using 45MM track.

Gauge refers to the width of the track, which is 45 mm. If one car is aid to be 1:20 in scale and the other 1:32, then they are correct. What frustrates you and many others is that this hobby started out at a 1:22 scale size. Aristocraft jumps in and produces 1:29 scale cars. Now…we are looking at cars that are bigger in size that the original. Yeah…it looks odd and waaay too large for the track that it is sitting on. Fun hobby, right.

Yes, Dennis. Unless we spike our own track, build our own trucks and rolling stock, we are stuck with 45 MM. So that limits us to 1/32 (4’ 8 1/2" Standard gauge), 1:20.3, (3’ Narrow Gauge) 1:22.5 (euro meter gauge) and 7/8" (2 foot gauge). That is if we wanted to model correct scale/gauge.

But like you said, fun hobby it is. I owned (and still own) a bunch of 1/29, 1/24, and 1.22.5 (LGB American Narrow Gauge) But it has been gathering dust for years now, since the advent of 1:20.3 equipment being easily acquired or built.

Dennis,

You are correct … sorta…

The original imports from LGB in the late '60s or early '70s were for European meter gauge at 1:22.5 (which is a standard engineering scale in Europe). In the mid '70s when I first saw the large scale stuff advertised in Model Railroader and Railroad Model Craftsman I thought that was a cool size and started investigating large scale until I saw a starter set at $200 and up. That was way out of my budget and settled on On3, and stopped following any of the developments in large scale.

In the mid '80s I dropped out of the hobby all together as my expanding family was doing an excellent job of disposing of my income faster than I could make it. Then in the mid 2000s I rejoined the hobby in large scale when Bachmann released the K27, in 1:20.3. Back in the ‘70s I had already done the math for the guage/scale conversion from 45mm to 3’ narrow gauge.

I have been told the history in detail, and frankly don;t remember it all, but as was put to me, there were several manufacturers in several different scales in between. MTH still manufactures in 1:32 which when scaled out is 4’-8 11/16" gauge. Pretty damn close to exact for me. Delton and Kalamazoo I believe scaled at 1:24 which is 3’-6 1/2" gauge. It was my understanding that they went with that scale because there was, at the time, a large availability of doll house stuff at 1:24 and most of the plastic kit car models were either 1:24 or 1:25, making support products readily available. Aristo Craft is a rogue in that there used to be an article posted on their web site (until Scott redid it) which clearly stated that the elder Polk used the 1:29 (said bugger) scale strictly for the WOW factor. Persoanlly I think there was a disservice done the hobby as a whole, but opinions vary. There is also a smaller division of the hobby modeling the ‘Two Footers’ where the scale is 45mm gauge woks out to 24" gauge at 1:13.51 scale.

Dennis, you are correct that it is a very confusing segment of the hobby when all the other scales are singular in scale/gauge designation. NMRA has recently tried to get involved, but has received heavy resistance from both the hobbiests and the manufacturers as both have had a free hand to ‘do it my way’ far too long to. From the manufaturer’s perspective, they have large sums of money tied up in tooling and in some cases material stock to embrace that kind of wholesale change. The hobbiests are in the same situation. Aristo Craft has by in large made them selves the largest supplier of rolling stock and motive power, followed by USA Trains. Out of the box they don’t play well together, especially in the coupler department. Many hobbiests have large investments in both vendor’s product and surely would not wish to have to make wholesale changes at considerable expense to become compliant with a standard set forth by a ‘Johnny come lately’.

For me pesonally I would not have that much conversion to make as I model 3’ narrow gauge now and scratch or bash most of my rolling stock because the primary vendors are too rich for my railroad’s budget. Not to mention there never were standards for narrow gauge railroads anyway.

@John - Thank you for such a wonderfully accurate graphic presentation to help with the scale / gauge confussion. If the mood strikes, when and if you get your small section of 70mm track down, a couple of new side by sides might also help.

My tuppence worth.

Bob C.

For one thing, the article from Aristo’s site also mentioned another factor that is nearly always omitted… 1/29 is the scale of the old tinplate standard gauge. Aristo had originally planned to make standard gauge wheel sets available as an upgrade option. Imagine a heavyweight rolling down tracks of the old standard gauge! The upgrades just never happened.

For a second thing, there is nothing wrong with Aristo’s choice. People could have chosen not to buy them. Since both cars are correct and my 1/29 double stack intermodal cars are executed nicely enough to satisfy me, what’s the problem?

Why do we have to keep beating the dead horse? By the way John, nice NG boxcar.

JD, I don’t really see this as beating a dead horse. The horse is not dead when someone asks the question ‘why?’ Thanks for the additional corrections on the 1/29, I had forgotten that part.

You are correct, if ya don’t like it, don’t buy it. I have some Aristo stuff, my wife is a dismal fan, I am a narrow gauge lover. Generally I run just about all of the RTR stuff together - Aristo, USA Trains, LGB, Bachmann Big Hauler, Delton, etc. At a show or open house I have never had a spectator tell me that my K27 pulling 27 or so mixed standard gauge cars was not prototypical. Usually I get the ‘Neat engine, what kind is that?’ from the adults, and ‘Wow what a big train!’ from the kids.

As always, ‘It’s your railroad, you are the CEO, you make the decisions.’

Bob C.

Nice pictures. makes me glad I settled on 1:20 rather than 1:32. That 1:32 car really looks tiny. Of course the 1:20 Standard gauge car on narrow gauge trucks really accentuates the difference.

It’s good to know that there is at least some reasoning behind this madness. I just thought I was missing something!

Yep, I ignore scale and run what I like. I like bigger trains so the 1:20.3 has bit me hard. For the same reason I avoid 1:32. I however would never suggest others are “wrong” to stick with differing scales than the ones I choose.

I run what I like - for the most part that’s stuff in the middle - 1:22 & 1:24. In my imaginary (New England) world, 3’6" gauge is the standard, and there’s interchange with other RRs that are the same gauge. My Littleton and Smallville RR is a Turn of Century common carrier.

1:20 stuff just seems huge to my old eyes; I got started in the Kalamazoo 1:24 days, and right or wrong I still love that old 1:24 stuff. I’m too old, my stuff too well established around here to change up now, I guess.

I have stuff of all these scales, but only a couple of the 1:20 shorty cars. They’re cute, but they don’t fit in here so I don’t use them much at all.

I follow Mark V’s philosophy, running what I like.

This post wasn’t to start a war. Or state “My stuff is real scale” etc.

It was just a pic to show the difference between the smallest and the largest. That’s all.

A while back(2000) I attended the Gr convention in San Diego. One of the layouts on the tour, (Larry Rose’s Rio Verde Western if I’m not mistaken), had a standard gauge interchange. There were quite a few people who had no idea that the bigger standard gauge boxcar sitting there was the same scale as the narrow gauge cars on the RR. It was pretty funny.

Okay, clarification please… the wooden boxcar… is that a model of a standard gauge car or narrow gauge? Or is it SG on NG trucks?

"1:32 40’ Accucraft box car and 1:20.3 40’ CM Boxcar, riding on NG trucks.

Both using 45MM track."

The Colorado Midland was a standard gauge RR.

I edited it for clarity.

Both 40’ Standard Gauge boxcars. 40’ CM has been lifted off of it’s SG trucks and placed on NG trucks to continue to its destination.

Different scales of models, with the track being the correct scale/gauge.

John Bouck said:

This post wasn’t to start a war. Or state “My stuff is real scale” etc.

It was just a pic to show the difference between the smallest and the largest. That’s all.

… and the comparison is interesting. Thanks for taking the trouble, John.

Yes, “large scale” is screwy. We use multiple scales instead of multiple gauges. The market is too “entrenched” (early mfgers were more concerned with stuff “playing nice” with LGB than starting from scratch), small and fractured for anything else now.

BTW as mentioned 1/24 on 45mm track is also a proper scale – for 42" gauge. You’ll often hear “But that isn’t a “correct” gauge!” Actually, it is, it’s often called “Cape Gauge” or “Colonial Gauge” because most of the railroads in South Africa (plus other British colonies in southern Africa and Asia) were built to it. Also used in Japan, Ecuador, and even a common carrier in Newfoundland, dozens of sugar cane railroads in places like Java, and many, many Oif not most) mine trams in the good old US of A.

PERSONALLY, I like it because the math is easy, there’s plenty of accessories from outside hobbies like diecast and dollhouse places, AND your brain sees what it wants to see, 99% of folks won’t even notice the “extra” half foot (1/4") in gauge unless it’s pointed out to them.

Oh, and you can also fit layouts in smaller spaces (than with 1:20.3 NG OR 1/32 and 1/29 mainline SG). Indoors or out. DEFINITELY a plus for those of us who don’t have 40 acres to play with! :slight_smile:

There were more miles of 42" gauge lines constructed in the US than there were 2’ gauge lines.

http://www.raccooncrkrwy.com/42gauge.HTM

When people ask at the garden, I explain,

The 45mm track is almost exactly 1/32 of the standard gauge, so we use a scale of 1/29 to represent standard guage so the people who want to be superior can use 1/32 and say, “well, I use the CORRECT scale.” Usually, this brings a smile.

Tom,

Most of my visitors, (Except the Geezer Gaugers Club) couldn’t tell the difference between any of the “G” scales anyway. Trying to explain it is somewhat difficult. When their eyes start to glaze over I say it’s all

G scale.

“What’s G scale”, they ask.

I say G is for Garden Scale. :slight_smile: