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  • Topic: Boiler feedwater pumps.

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    • March 24, 2020 11:38 AM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      Boiler feedwater pumps.

      Okay so I am asking this here because I want as many people who might know to see it. I am asking as much for modeling my current loco as I am just curios about the evolution of feeding water into a boiler. I am going to use my prototype picture for reference.

      Picture from Virginia and Truckee.com

      So I want to model an early locomotive. And I asked earlier about an "injector" that was mounted on the cross head. I was informed that it was not an injector but a pump driven by some connection to the cross head. On the picture above it is the gold thing between the drivers. One thing I have wondered about this drawing is the "thing" between the domes. When looking for close up pictures of various crosshead feedwater pumps so i could model it I came across this picture and several like it

      picture found here Phase 3 project

      So this thing is a feed water pump also. I am assuming it is either acting as the primary feed or as a back up to the crosshead pump. But I am intrigued and may model this instead of a crosshead mounted one. Can someone explaing to me roughly what this thing does and how it works. I assume, unlike the crosshead pump which is using the back and forth motion of the cross head to drive a piston pump, this one appears to be steam powered. It looks to me as if it is using steam to drive the pump. Is this the case? And if so how would it be plumbed. Again I assume you would have a feed line from the tender through the pump into the boiler with a check valve. And that there is a steam line from the turret of ??? that delivers steam to the pump to drive the piston and then that steam could either vent to atmosphere like a dynamo or dump into the smoke box like a air pump.

       

      Ideas thoughts education. I would be interested to know the history of feed water pumps prior to the days of lifting injectors.

       

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    • March 24, 2020 11:46 AM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      I notice on the tender there is a hose reel. I also do not see where or how this is plumbed into the boiler. The steam feed line is coming out of the side of the steam dome. And then a line runs back to the cab which I am assuming is the water coming from the tender. But could it be that this thing is actually a pressure water pump for using that hose reel and not to feed water into the boiler?

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    • March 24, 2020 1:20 PM EDT
      • Hendersonville, North Carolina
         
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      Devon,

       

      Check out Dave Fletcher's Master-2001 class.  Build a Baldwin 2-6-0, Chapter 6 Plumbing,  pages 21-13.  Maybe some help there.

       

      Doc

    • March 24, 2020 1:26 PM EDT
      • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
         
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      Devon, that locomotive was used to fight track-side fires, and that steam driven pump on top of the boiler was to pump water through the hose to spray water onto the fires. It is not part of the boiler feed-water system.

       

      Cross-head feed-water pumps were used on early locomotives, until the steam injector was invented. There was a valve on the tender water tank leg to control how mush water was allowed into the cross-head feed-water pump. Bachmann models these on their models, even though they don't have the cross-head feed-water pump.

      This post was edited by David Maynard at March 25, 2020 11:07 AM EDT
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      Shannon car Shops
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    • March 24, 2020 1:36 PM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      Don Watson said:

      Devon,

       

      Check out Dave Fletcher's Master-2001 class.  Build a Baldwin 2-6-0, Chapter 6 Plumbing,  pages 21-13.  Maybe some help there.

       

      Doc

      Doc that is my goto resource. It is what I used for my 2-6-0 build and is what is guiding me on this one. Sadly he only skims on feedwater pumps. He focuses on injectors. But it is a great document.

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    • March 24, 2020 2:11 PM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      David Maynard said:

      Devon, that locomotive was used to fight track-side fires, and that steam driven pump on top of the boiler was to pump water through the hose to spray water onto the fires. It is not part of the boiler feed-water system.

       

      Cross-head feed-water pumps were used on early locomotives, until the steam injector was invented. There was a valve on the tender water tank leg to control how mush water was allowed into the cross-head feed-water pump. Bachmann models these on their models, even though they don't have the cross-head feed-water pump.

      Thats what i was thinking.

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    • March 24, 2020 8:28 PM EDT
      • Missouri, It's like Floodsburg, man
         
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      David Maynard said: There was a valve on the tender water tank leg to control how mush water was allowed into the cross-head feed-water pump. Bachmann models these on their models, even though they don't have the cross-head feed-water pump.

      Actually, water valve handles atop the tender water legs were in standard common use for multiple decades after the end of crosshead-driven water pumps.
      Some examples, with source noted:

    • March 24, 2020 8:40 PM EDT

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      Don't really work to today's standards but perhaps try cocks will

    • March 24, 2020 8:45 PM EDT
      • Missouri, It's like Floodsburg, man
         
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      Rooster ' said:

      Don't really work to today's standards but perhaps try cocks will

      Oh! That has a great view of the cylinder cock control linkage I want to add to the Big Haulers and Annie!

      Back to the tender water valves, even N&W 611 has its water supply lines coming from tender floor under where the water leg valve handles are: see uncoupled tender almost at bottom of page here with its water hoses curled back and secured, http://www.trainweb.org/chris/18nctm.html

    • March 25, 2020 7:38 AM EDT
      • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
         
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      Thanks Forrest. I stand corrected. I didn't see those valves on more modern tenders so I just assumed (yea I know) that they were part of the cross-head feed-water system. But now that you point out that they are on more modern tenders, it would make sense to have them on all tenders.

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    • March 25, 2020 9:11 AM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      I would think the tender valve would have been incorporated even with injectors for the very reason Forrest mentions so that when uncoupled it doesn't drain the tank. Valving is never bad.

       

      Rooster thanks for that video that shows a couple of pieces of interesting detail for an older style loco. But the way the crosshead pump is attached and its looks are perfect for me to model from.

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    • March 25, 2020 8:15 PM EDT

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      Forrest Scott Wood said:
      Rooster ' said:

      Don't really work to today's standards but perhaps try cocks will

      Oh! That has a great view of the cylinder cock control linkage I want to add to the Big Haulers and Annie!

      Back to the tender water valves, even N&W 611 has its water supply lines coming from tender floor under where the water leg valve handles are: see uncoupled tender almost at bottom of page here with its water hoses curled back and secured, http://www.trainweb.org/chris/18nctm.html

       

       

      Forrest ,

       

       BTW that is Hanover Junction PA ...Abe was there back in the day in the hood!

       

    • March 26, 2020 12:02 AM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      thanks for the help everyone. I think I came up with a reasonable crosshead pump feedwater system.

       

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    • March 26, 2020 7:22 AM EDT
      • Hendersonville, North Carolina
         
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      Nice work Devon. That’s a very good representation of what you were aiming for. 

      Doc

    • March 26, 2020 12:17 PM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      Don Watson said:

      Nice work Devon. That’s a very good representation of what you were aiming for. 

      Doc

      I had to modify it. If you see my thread on the loco I am building it was just sorta hanging out in the wind. Didn't look right. Maynard pointed it out and I was already thinking it so it needed to change. Here it is modified and mounted.

       

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    • March 26, 2020 12:19 PM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      I am still very intrigued by the fire fighting pump. Depending on other appurtenance that need to be applied, if I have room I might slap one on. I just like the uniqueness of it. 

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    • March 26, 2020 2:06 PM EDT
      • Fort Myers Beach & Annapolis, Florida & Maryland
         
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      Devon Sinsley said:
      Don Watson said:

      Nice work Devon. That’s a very good representation of what you were aiming for. 

      Doc

      I had to modify it. If you see my thread on the loco I am building it was just sorta hanging out in the wind. Didn't look right. Maynard pointed it out and I was already thinking it so it needed to change. Here it is modified and mounted.

       

      I hate to criticize, but you seem to have left off the actual pump bits. What you have there is the water feed and the two check valves (one in, one out) that separate the actual pump. There should be a rod from the crosshead and a cylinder with the pump piston inside it parallel to the piston rod.  See attached photo.

       

       

       

       

      Untitled-1.jpg (207.98 Kb)
      This post was edited by Pete Thornton at March 26, 2020 2:07 PM EDT
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        Pete

    • March 26, 2020 2:14 PM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      Its there Pete. I think its just hard to see in the pictures of it mounted but I believe I have all the bits. The pump is just mounted behind the cross head. and that is hiding it.

       

       

      I could mount it on the outside I suppose and then you would see it better.

      This post was edited by Devon Sinsley at March 26, 2020 2:17 PM EDT
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    • March 26, 2020 5:06 PM EDT
      • Chelmsford, MA
         
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      For reference the latest version of the Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-0s have crossshead pumps.

       

      These were modeled after the one on the Glenbrook.  This locomotive was restored to its as built condition so does not have either air brakes or lifting injectors.  It is in use at the Nevada RR Mesuem and will travel to the C&TS later this year,

       

      Stan

       

      This post was edited by Stanley Ames at March 26, 2020 5:11 PM EDT
    • March 26, 2020 5:28 PM EDT
      • Post Falls, Idaho
         
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      Thanks Stan.

       

      That makes me want to put a little more effort into it and bring it to the outside of the crosshead.

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