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  • Topic: Using a Three Wire Pulse Generator/Hall Sensor

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    • May 21, 2019 8:41 AM EDT
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      Using a Three Wire Pulse Generator/Hall Sensor

      Does anyone have experience using a three wire pulse generator/hall sensor on a sound decoder without a specific connector for it?  I've installed a Massoth Pulsed Generator into an LGB Uintah steamer originally to connect to a Massoth XLS Sound decoder which has the three pin connector for the pulse generator.  But now my customer instead wants me to install a Phoenix P8 sound decoder which as a connection for a two lead chuff reed switch.  The Massoth decoder documentation indicates the three lead pulsed generator connections as:  Ground; Clock; 6.5 volts.  So, I'm not aware whether the Phoenix decoder can support a pulse generator without a clock feature?

      Thanks

      Tom

      Note:  I've posted a photo of the Massoth Pulse Generator unit that I installed into the LGB Uintah, for those not familiar with pulse generators that produce the chuff input into a decoder's clock connector.

      This post was edited by Thomas White at May 22, 2019 10:08 PM EDT
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    • May 21, 2019 8:14 PM EDT
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      I would contact Phoenix. It would seam to me that they should know.

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    • May 21, 2019 9:42 PM EDT
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      It really depends on the hall sensor output (which normally goes to ground), and the phoenix requirements for the chuff trigger.

       

      It might work as is (clock is really the hall effect output) and the phoenix chuff trigger needs to be pulled to ground as I remember.

       

      Might work as is, or you may have to "amplify" the current with a single transistor.

       

      Double check the assumptions in #2 sentence and if right, hook them up. Don't overvoltage the hall sensor most work fine on 5v

       

      Greg

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    • May 22, 2019 8:02 PM EDT
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      All the hall sensors I have ever worked with USE a 5v reference signal with a ground. The 3rd wire will be pulse generating or square wave pattern on a scope. Nothing more than an on/off signal passing a magnet. However I have never worked with them in a model train application only 30+ years in the automotive repair industry which uses them quite frequently. 

      With that said I will let the experts help you out Tom as I don't want to be an attack dog here or post fowl language.

       

      Good luck and please post your results

       

         Rooz

    • May 22, 2019 8:20 PM EDT
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      I have a set of pick-up trucks that had a Hall pick-up mounted.  The axle has a rubber "tube" in the center that rotates with the wheels.  This counter-rotates a "tube" magnet mounted on an axle just above that spins in front of the sensor.  When I spin the wheels and place a compass next to this tube magnet it goes N/S/N/S/etc.

       

      It would seem to me that any Hall set-up would also require a magnet that spins in proximity to teh sensor, and perhaps, you could just replace the Hall sensor with a reed switch and wire that accordingly.

    • May 22, 2019 10:09 PM EDT
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      David Maynard said:

      I would contact Phoenix. It would seam to me that they should know.

       

      David - Yes, I've already sent them a message asking for their advice.  But there may be some folks on this forum that have already dealt with this issue, so thought i'd "pulse" them here too.

      Tom

       

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    • May 22, 2019 10:13 PM EDT
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      Todd Brody said:

      I have a set of pick-up trucks that had a Hall pick-up mounted.  The axle has a rubber "tube" in the center that rotates with the wheels.  This counter-rotates a "tube" magnet mounted on an axle just above that spins in front of the sensor.  When I spin the wheels and place a compass next to this tube magnet it goes N/S/N/S/etc.

       

      It would seem to me that any Hall set-up would also require a magnet that spins in proximity to teh sensor, and perhaps, you could just replace the Hall sensor with a reed switch and wire that accordingly.

       

      Todd - I just posted a photo of the Massoth Pulse Generator Unit that I installed in the LGB Uintah..........the round magnet is mounted onto the axle and rotates over the three wire sensor.

      Tom

       

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    • May 22, 2019 10:21 PM EDT
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      Greg Elmassian said:

      It really depends on the hall sensor output (which normally goes to ground), and the phoenix requirements for the chuff trigger.

       

      It might work as is (clock is really the hall effect output) and the phoenix chuff trigger needs to be pulled to ground as I remember.

       

      Might work as is, or you may have to "amplify" the current with a single transistor.

       

      Double check the assumptions in #2 sentence and if right, hook them up. Don't overvoltage the hall sensor most work fine on 5v

       

      Greg

       

      Greg - I sent an email last Monday to the Phoenix Sound folks and awaiting their advice.......if a pulse generator unit has been successfully connected to one of their decoders I'm sure they'll know about it, or can also say whether it will work or not.  It appears your thoughts are to attach the pulse generator wires to the regular two chuff inputs to the Phoenix decoder (ground and chuff) and the third wire to some 5volt (Massoth decoders use 6.5 volts) connection on the decoder.......that's what I also thinking but not sure which connection to obtain it.  So I think I'll wait for the Phoenix folks' response before I try anything.

        

      Tom

       

       

      This post was edited by Thomas White at May 22, 2019 10:23 PM EDT
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    • May 22, 2019 11:02 PM EDT
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      yep, you will need not only a regulated voltage, but to be sure to use the Phoenix ground and I would regulate the 5 volts from the supply that feeds the Phoenix.

       

      Otherwise the ground reference won't be right for the Phoenix.

       

      Greg

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    • June 10, 2019 4:42 PM EDT
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      Greg Elmassian said:

      yep, you will need not only a regulated voltage, but to be sure to use the Phoenix ground and I would regulate the 5 volts from the supply that feeds the Phoenix.

       

      Otherwise the ground reference won't be right for the Phoenix.

      Greg

      ++++++++++++++++

      Greg - Here's the response I received from Jim/Phoenix Sound........does it sync with your comments?

      If the hall sensor is to be powered by  the Massoth power decoder, you may only need to connect the Hall output (chuff) to the Phoenix Chuff trigger input. If the Phoenix sound board is to power the hall sensor then the ground connects to Phoenix ground/trigger ground, the hall output to the phoenix chuff input and the hall +5V to the Phoenix +5V (Volume switch +5V connection is a good place to grab that).

       

       

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      https://www.olddominionrailways.com/

       

    • June 10, 2019 8:21 PM EDT
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      " Rooster " said:

      All the hall sensors I have ever worked with USE a 5v reference signal with a ground. The 3rd wire will be pulse generating or square wave pattern on a scope. Nothing more than an on/off signal passing a magnet. However I have never worked with them in a model train application only 30+ years in the automotive repair industry which uses them quite frequently. 

      With that said I will let the experts help you out Tom as I don't want to be an attack dog here or post fowl language.

       

      Good luck and please post your results

       

         Rooz

       

       

       

    • June 10, 2019 10:29 PM EDT
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      Yes Tom, at the very least, you need to have the same ground reference, thus the suggestion to connect the grounds.

       

      The iffy point is if the 5v from the decoder will "reference" to the 5v in the Phoenix.

       

      In the strictest sense, if the grounds are connected together, and "going to ground" is the trigger (as I believe), then most likely either 5v should work, but often "should" translates to "maybe".  ;-)

       

      Let us know how it works out, but I suspect it will work either way. If you get into trouble, I would use a 5v supply to the hall effect referenced to the Phoenix.

       

      Best, Greg

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    • June 11, 2019 8:03 PM EDT
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      Greg Elmassian said:

      Yes Tom, at the very least, you need to have the same ground reference, thus the suggestion to connect the grounds.

       

       

      Best, Greg

      What ???

      Never mind .....

    • June 13, 2019 1:58 AM EDT
      • Shut Up Rooster
         
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      Rooster, re-read the response from Phoenix re: connecting grounds and what Tom asked me if you are confused

      ____________________________________

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    • June 13, 2019 8:44 PM EDT
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      Greg Elmassian said:

      Rooster, re-read the response from Phoenix re: connecting grounds and what Tom asked me if you are confused

      I did Greg ....however it matters not to me as you are ALWAYS correct and I could care less.  I'm only following along listening to the expert advice shared on Large Scale Central no where else.

       

      Hopefully Tom will post his results

    • June 14, 2019 4:06 AM EDT
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      Sigh rooster.

      1. if it did not matter to you, then why make comments like you did: "what???  Never mind"

      2. if anyone was to believe your "i'm only following along and don't care anyway" after all your posts, they would have to have a room temperature iq

      3. If there was even a CHANCE you were being serious about understanding, instead of just being a rooster, then I would be happy to explain it to you.

       

      Sorry you feel your duty is to act this way, to the point you cannot even stifle yourself when you "don't care"

       

      Greg

       

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    • June 14, 2019 4:35 AM EDT
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      Greg and Rooster - I have some other sound system projects taking priority right now, so it will be awhile before I'll be able to test a hall sensor with the Phoenix sound board and Massoth decoder.  But once I do it, I'll certainly post the results, successful or unsuccessful, for everyone.

      Thanks for both your inputs.

      Tom

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