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  • Topic: LGB 21670 Track cleaning loco

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    • March 11, 2019 8:08 AM EDT
      • Berkshire, Ma.
         
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      Stan your link work just fine on my phone and my lap-top right to the PDF

      cheers 

      Richard

    • March 11, 2019 9:58 AM EDT
      • Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong
         
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      Dan,

      Thanks, yes I have made sure of both those points you make. 

      I will revisit this on Sunday when I can double check what JMRI reads as the decoder manufacture ID. 

      Everyones kind help is appreciated. 

       

      Andrew

    • March 11, 2019 6:47 PM EDT
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      AJ, what I was asking for the the manufacturers ID and the decoder version... reading CV's 7 and 8....

       

      We keep speculating on what the decoder is, was hoping to establish those values, and also validate your service mode programming is actually working.

       

      Greg

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    • March 11, 2019 8:17 PM EDT
      • Branchport, NY
         
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      Greg Elmassian said:

      Tom, did you get to the pdf file, or just a main Train-Li page? I use firefox too.

      Greg

      I got the PDF file.

      Tom

       

    • March 11, 2019 11:51 PM EDT
      • Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong
         
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      Greg,

      Thanks you. As i mentioned I will check again on Sunday when I get back home. I cant remember what the eaxact result was from CV 7 and  CV 8 right now so best to check for sure.

      Thank you for kind help and patience.

      Andrew

       

    • March 12, 2019 8:06 AM EDT
      • Eastern Massachusetts
         
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      Sometimes it is nice to know the decoder firmware version.

      For Zimo, it is CV 7 (whole number) and CV 65 (after the decimal).

      For MTS it is CV 7.  and cv106 is firmware preset version.  On board Mogul is 129

      I mention MTS as when replacing a decoder it is important for CV 106 to be the same as this is for setup voltages and function key assignments.

       

    • March 13, 2019 1:35 PM EDT
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      Dan, you mention elsewhere that the most modern versions of the TC loco do not have "stock" LGB decoders, but a special one... is there a unique part number, or do you have a picture?

       

      Greg

      ____________________________________

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    • March 15, 2019 4:56 PM EDT
      • Chelmsford, MA
         
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      Andrew

       

      I talked to a local person who has repaired several of these.  If you place 20 + volts on the track and the cleaning motor does not move there is likely a problem with the main board.  He has seen that the ball bearing on the cleaning motor axle can freeze causing the motor to stall.  On one unit it only froze once in awhile.  When it froze a diode on the main board burned out.  The main board has a rectifier whose outputs feed the track cleaning motor.  Check the voltage there.

       

      The decoder is integrated to the board and while you can often replace the diodes the main board costs about $160 or so to get a replacement.  

       

      The decoder ID will likely show it is LGB as they have a manufacture ID and for the most part use that for their products.

       

      To check the lights try increasing the speed one notch.  If the lights are off in each position there is likely something wrong with the decoder.  I would check the Massoth WWW site for more compete list of CVs as perhaps you changed a function mapping. They might also have a suggestion on who to reset the decoder with your programmer.

       

      If the lights come on at one speed step and go off at another speed step you have a mismatch between the decoder speed step and the command station speed step.

       

      Hope that helps.

       

      Stan

       

      Hope that helps.

       

      Stan

    • March 16, 2019 7:23 AM EDT
      • Eastern Massachusetts
         
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      Stan, the CV 7 ID is 123 which is Massoth for the LGB track loco and all non Marklin engines of the past.  Of course the 55020 and 55021 will have the same ID of 123 which were used in the decoder ready versions of the track cleaner.

    • March 16, 2019 9:47 AM EDT
      • Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong
         
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      Hi, I am back home early so dived right inti this again. Manufacturer ID is 123, version is 25, ID for decoder type is 5. I did write ti Massoth but no response. Stan I think you might be on to something, although my maximum power is meant ti be 18 volts. I most appreciate you asking for me. The cleaning motor will turn if power is supplied to its motor directly.

      Andrew

    • March 18, 2019 3:19 PM EDT
      • McLean, VA
         
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      Hi - The LGB 21670 has a DCC decoder built into the main circuit board........there is no decoder interface like the second of the three versions of the Yellow LGB 20160.  The first 20160 was strickly DC/Analog; the third version has the dcc functionality built into the main circuit board like the current Red LGB 21670.  If your LGB 21670 main circuit board is fired, you can buy a replacement circuit board #LGB E129813 at OnlyTrains.com for $110 plus shipping.  I also have these circuit boards for the LGB 20670/21670 loco repairs I do for folks.   These circuit boards are produced by Massoth.  Regarding the CV programming issues, your DCC programming tool could be the problem......some non-Massoth/Piko DCC systems do not provide sufficient power to program the Massoth-type decoders.  I installed a Massoth XL power decoder and Phoenix sound decoder into someone's LGB F7AB diesel locomotive last year and had no problem setting the CVs.  But when the person received the locos, his NEC DCC system didn't have enough power to properly program the CVs.  He eventually borrowed a friend's Piko DCC system (made by Massoth) and that solved his programming challenges.

      Tom 

       

       

       

      Capture.JPG (23.61 Kb)
      This post was edited by Thomas White at March 18, 2019 3:22 PM EDT
      ____________________________________

      Tom White

      LGB Railfan - LocomotivesPro

      https://www.olddominionrailways.com/

       

    • March 18, 2019 5:07 PM EDT
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      It's not necessarily power to program, it's the programming mode... normally these older decoders need register mode, which is indeed in all NCE systems.

       

      Just something people need to know on older systems, register, paged and direct modes used on the programming track in service mode.

       

      My NCE was great at programming, once I tried other modes and also learned that European decoders often need power interrupted after writing.

       

      The NCE allowed ME to choose which mode is used.... whereas even my extremely expensive Zimo does not let me forcibly control the protocol, it tries direct and then if it fails to read, I believe it drops back to register or paged.

       

      Lots to learn when you work on the old stuff... stuff they did not bother to mention in the manuals.

       

      Greg

      ____________________________________

      Be sure­ to visit ­my site, l­ots of tec­hnical tip­s and modi­fications,­ and you c­an search ­for topics­ and key w­ords.


      ­Click HERE for Greg­'s web sit­e
      PLEASE NOT­E: Please do NOT use private messaging, i­f you have­ a questio­n, feel fr­ee to emai­l me priva­tely, u­se regular­ email onl­y: greg@el­massian.co­m

    • March 19, 2019 7:29 AM EDT
      • Eastern Massachusetts
         
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      LGB track cleaner versions:

      1st had sockets on the back for track power  2067   3 wire motor block

      2nd  did not have the sockets on the back 20670   3 wire motor block

      3rd had DCC ready sticker, no socket on the rear   4 wire motor block  you could add the 55020 and later the 55021 for DCC

      4th is yellow 20670.8 with the built in DCC decoder

      5th had a decoder built in the control board 21670  and is now a red cleaner.

       

       

      This post was edited by Dan Pierce at March 20, 2019 7:22 AM EDT
    • March 19, 2019 8:43 AM EDT
      • Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong
         
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      This is all facinating information. My Sprog 3 18 Volt using JMRI only seems to have direct or page mode. I can change CVs and it seems to stick, but reset does not fully work what ever method I use. It never resets CV 1 to 3.

      before I shell out on another board or Zimo decoder I will keep trying to see if I can resolve this. 

      Having said that, is it possible to get the thermal cut out for the cleaner motor to work with a Zimo decoder ?

      Andrew

    • March 19, 2019 9:28 AM EDT
      • McLean, VA
         
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      Dan Pierce said:

      LGB track cleaner versions:

      1st had sockets on the back for track power  2067   3 wire motor block

      2nd  did not have the sockets on the back 20670   3 wire motor block

      3rd had DCC ready sticker, no socket on the rear   4 wire motor block  you could add the 55020 and later the 55021 for DCC

      4th had a decoder built in the control board 21670     Red track cleaner is DCC

       

      Dan - You state there were three versions of the "Yellow" LGB 2067/20670 Track Cleaning Loco.  So, using your list, then there were actually four versions of these "Yellow" locos before they produced the "Red" LGB 21670 loco with the onboard MTS/DCC decoder installed.  This fourth version of the "Yellow" LGB 20670 did have the factory-installed onboard MTS/DCC decoder.  A copy of the LGB Owner's Manual for this LGB 20670 loco is attached.  So, it's important for anyone owning one of the LGB track cleaning locos to accurately identify which version they have in order to properly diagnose the operating issues.   As you know, this is particularly important if it's DCC equipped, and then to also determine whether someone has installed a DCC decoder or  whether it's the factory-installed onboard MTS/DCC decoder.  If the owner doesn't have the owner's manual and know the history of the loco, then the surest method is to disassemble the loco to determine how it's configured inside.  Unfortunately, LGB didn't use version numbers with production dates on their locomotives which would also be helpful for resale value. 

      Tom

      20670_022003 Onboard MTS Decoder.pdf (205.13 Kb)
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      Tom White

      LGB Railfan - LocomotivesPro

      https://www.olddominionrailways.com/

       

    • March 20, 2019 7:24 AM EDT
      • Eastern Massachusetts
         
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      Looked in the compendium and found there are 5 track cleaner versions so I updated  my previous list to show 5 models.

      Difference in 4th and 5th is the color of the loco.

    • March 20, 2019 8:26 AM EDT
      • McLean, VA
         
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      A J said:

      This is all facinating information. My Sprog 3 18 Volt using JMRI only seems to have direct or page mode. I can change CVs and it seems to stick, but reset does not fully work what ever method I use. It never resets CV 1 to 3.

      before I shell out on another board or Zimo decoder I will keep trying to see if I can resolve this. 

      Having said that, is it possible to get the thermal cut out for the cleaner motor to work with a Zimo decoder ?

      Andrew

       

      Hi Andrew - Try one more time to set the CV1 address you want.  I assume you're using a programming track:  So after you enter the address and press ok to enter it, then raise on side of the loco off the rail, so the wheels disengage, to unpower the decoder........wait three seconds and then place the loco back on the rail to re-power the decoder.  See if that works to set your CVs.  I have to use this approach with the Soundtraxx Tsunami2 decoders with my Massoth DCC system.

       

      Also, if your loco's board or the installed decoder is defective, I'd recommend you install a new replacement board with the built-in decoder which are made by Massoth for these LGB track clearner cars.  You can buy one at OnlyTrains.com for $110 plus shipping.  I bought several for my inventory for repairing customer's locos.......did one last month for someone.  You just remove the old board and install the new one, there's a connector cable that plugs into the front cleaning motor.  This is a clean baseline repair approach instead of trying to replace an existing decoder, if it has one.  The photo shows the track cleaning loco with the new board ready to be installed.

       

      Tom

      This post was edited by Thomas White at March 20, 2019 8:43 AM EDT
      ____________________________________

      Tom White

      LGB Railfan - LocomotivesPro

      https://www.olddominionrailways.com/

       

    • March 29, 2019 11:00 PM EDT
      • Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong
         
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      My sincere thanks to everyone for your kind help and support. Before buying a new decoder I decided to give LGB one more try. I very kind gentleman replied with the following information. Some of it was not in the manual so I’m sharing it here In the hope it will help others. As I suspected some of the non listed CV had been overwritten. The Reset still does not work, but having the extra CV below enabled me to program each directly. 

      My LGB track cleaning loco is back in business. 

      LGB 20670 Schienenschleiflok / Track cleaning loco Besondere CV-Werte / special CV values
      30.11.2010 - NR

      CV49 = 32 Cleaning Motor Speed control

      CV50 = 5 Brightnes for Lights

      CV51 = 129 Cleaning motor switch button 1 / forward only

      CV52 = 128 Light command forward

      CV53 = 64 Light command back

      CV54 = 38 Digital Aanalogue flashing light configuration

      CV56 = 5 Bright ness flashing roof lights

      CV57 = 129 switch for flashing lights

      CV55 = 55 Reset Standard

      CV55 = 66 Reset Specials

       

      Andrew

    • March 30, 2019 8:54 AM EDT
      • Eastern Massachusetts
         
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      CV51 makes me wonder if I add reverse control by adding 64  (CV51 = 193) will the loco clean in reverse??

      My digital loco has a zimo decoder and will clean in both directions.  I do not have the LGB digital board to try this.

    • March 30, 2019 8:54 AM EDT
      • Eastern Massachusetts
         
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      CV51 makes me wonder if I add reverse control by adding 64  (CV51 = 193) will the loco clean in reverse??

      My digital loco has a zimo decoder and will clean in both directions.  I do not have the LGB digital board to try this.

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