As some of our visitors from the USofA, have noted, and observed; we seem to attract NEW people to the LS hobby, continuously. I don’t think, it has anything at all to do with my good looks or farty disposition…!!

Here I am; completely sober, on our “Thanks-For-Giving” Monday morning; feeling rather overly THANKFUL for a great year of Saturday Mornings, devoted to OPERATIONS.

WHY have we continuously, been able to field, such a great number of FRIENDS, every Saturday morning, through-out this past season (19 Saturdays, and they keep coming back), while so many “Garden Railroad Clubs” have seen a decline in interest ?

It’s a hard question to WISELY answer…

Many blame the decline in the age group, normally associated to “Garden Railroading”, and its dying members. (I’m getting older too)

But, there are still new, outdoor, model railroads being established, but with few people showing an interest, invited or otherwise.

What is the problem here…what is the overall view…

Where to find new interested people…how to retain an interest in anyone who shows an interest…these seem to be two major questions. How to address these questions…

Like everyone; I have more interests in life, and my hobby, than just LS Model Railroading. I’m also involved with a “Railroaders’ Club” which involves people from all areas of the Hobby, based on the Rail Transportation Industry. I also am involved with others who are Sn3, HO, On30, and N gauge modellers.

I find that from these other groups; there are many who are NOT interested in starting their own LS railroad, but are interested in being involved with someone else’s.

Is this the hidden source of LS modellers…? By gar, they sure populate our group and keep dropping in each week.

I also find, that OPERATIONS, attract more people than the old standard of Roundy-Roundy, other than those that can be counted to only drop by once, to entertain their grand children who get bored after a half an hour at most.

I’m very THANKFUL for the great year my FRIENDS and I have experienced, and Hope the next Year will be great for everyone.

Fred Mills

Without doubt an ‘operational’ style railroad will be far more interesting than one with far less ‘action’ and should encourage continued interest by anyone who sees it. For many of us, however, the shortage of real estate does cramp our style somewhat and we can find it difficult to portray what can be achieved if you have the space and moreover the resources.

We have seen how a larger scale operation works well with lots of adherents at Starwood Abbey. So maybe those who have a smaller set up can give some pointers how they achieve interest. For my part a grain elevator siding and freight depot helps add interest with delivering and removing cars, A covered bridge and lots of small bushes and a rock cutting, adds a little curiosity for visitors. Having more than enough stock also helps, as different consists can be run.

Alan; Thank you for your comments, and acknowledgment of how much even a few attempts towards operation can interest people towards the hobby.

The size of the area available is often the limiting factor towards an interest in Large Scale model railroading.

This thread I started is directed more towards the frustration people who have the area, and want to build a substantial railroad, but fear to take on too large a one alone, without help.

I started mine basically alone, but invited others to share the idea with me. Their contributions made the whole thing worth-while for me, and them. We all are able to have an OPERATING railroad, without having to put up with the constraints each alone would be faced with.

As far as the constraints: I was going to build the railroad anyhow. I had the space, although we wish we had more at times !

Some of the guys could not afford to build a LS railroad…they contributed their ideas, and skills…and labour

I managed to accept ideas and suggestions from the guys, without offending their desires for a good overall railroad…

…in return the guys respected the fact that the railroad is mine, although, over the years, in reality, it is ours, through friendship

and care.

The equipment is a mix of what I have, and what others devote to the railroad. Locomotives are owned by the guys, and I have mine.

Somehow, we all avoid politics and religion, and respect each other, devoting our Saturdays to having fun, and sharing true friendship.

Fred Mills

I think we should pursue all forms of the hobby, and if the roundy round people who you look down upon buy products and help the hobby, they are my friends, not poor people that have not seen the light.

Yes, if you have never done operations, it can be an additional source of interest, and for those who have never done it, it will surprise them how time flies.

I also appreciate coming home after a tough day, pushing one button and all locos are powered up and the throttles active and away we go, all in seconds.

So, I would suggest that we explore all facets and find fun for everyone, instead of saying operations is better than roundy round.

Greg

even on roundie-rounds one can involve the visitors.

pushbotton-activated animations increase interest, without increasing number of accidents.

Good thread, Fred.

You guys up there do seem to have a fascinating group of people attending your sessions. I’ve certainly enjoyed my visits all these many years and the camaraderie that goes with it. Along with that are the new faces that seem to show up every year. I’ve also enjoyed watching the IPP&W evolve over the years. (not to mention the neighborhood surrounding it…(https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif))

Keep up the good work.

Actually, I would venture to say that “roundy-rounders” buy more product than those who run operations.

During operations (we used to run them here) a train may go from point A to Point B to Point C a few times over the operating session/day. When I run “roundy-round” that same train may do this same thing hundreds of times over the day. The trains never get a chance to cool down. I probably get more physical wear in a day than operations people do in a year/lifetime.

At the train shows, the viewers disappear when I get to the the end of the run and start turning the train on the Wye. Its almost like “the train stopped, so the show is over”. Same thing when we do limited operations during a show, but on the other club’s roundy roundy set up, we don’t seam to have that issue. In fact, parents have to drag junior away from the railroad, sometimes kicking and screaming. So there is a place for both groups.

I have never participated in an official, scripted, operations session. At the shows, car set outs and pick ups are at the whim of the operator. It depends on my mood if I want to do some operations, or if I just want to watch my train go round. I get a happy feeling when my train goes roundy round for several circuits with that one car that wouldn’t run, but runs now that I “fixed” it. Same with a bashed or scratch built car. I like to see it run around and around without issue.

When I was young, I saw these massive train layouts in magazines, and thought that they were the only kind of railroad to have. That is quite intimidating, especially for someone with limited funds (like most of the population). I think that may be one of the larger factors holding wanna bees back. They don’t have the time/money/space/know how to build one of those layouts. So they don’t even get started. That is why I like LS, and On30. It gives folks a doorway to build a nice, small, shoe-string railroad, and have fun with it, without having to have 40 scale miles of track, 300 freight cars, and a few dozen locomotives. I know, that is an exaggeration, but not in the mind of a wanna bee.

Keeping new members in the club, or getting wanna be members to join, starts with us. We need to be welcoming, and supportive. The one group I belong to, the majority of the member sit behind the layout at the shows, and kibitz amongst themselves. That welcomes no one. One club I went to, but didn’t join, I felt tension in the air, and when a member called the president of the club a bit… well, you know, that turned me right off to that club.

So how do you find new people? How do you cultivate their interest? How do you get them started? How do you keep them going? If you come up with those magic answers I would think that Kader would give you a nice royalty check.

Speaking about all scales generally, and club membership and involvement specifically, for us and our little model RR club in this county seat farm burg of population eight thousand or so, the shortage is not people with an interest, the shortage is people with an interest who will turn that interest in to action.

The trend seems to be that if they have a job or a family, especially if there is a family, then their lives are already over-scheduled and something involving that job or family would have to be dumped to make time for railroad club activity.

Roundy-Roundy, or Operations…whatever it takes to get people interested, and INVOLVED, in Large Scale Model Railroading…that’s why I started this thread.

NEVER, NEVER, have I said one was better than the other…I just reported on what I had experienced and observed from my little window.

It is not a competition. Why are so many, so defensive…We should all be working together, to promote the hobby, using Operations, AND Roundy-Roundy, as options devoted to finding, new FRIENDS for the hobby. We all can learn from each other, and share the joys of the hobby, of modelling/enjoying, the rail transportation industry.

Let us all learn, from each others’ experiences, and share…

If, in any way I have offended anyone…I apologise. I’m just trying to jar everyone into action, promoting the hobby, and working together.

Fred Mills

Yes, Forrest Scott, financial, and time restrictions DO force the younger people to cut back on resources devoted to hobbies and pleasures.

That is why, some of us who are retired can have a railroad, to SHARE with those who can’t afford one. They can be welcomed to participate in whatever way they can, and be welcomed into the LS part of the hobby. We who are fortunate enough to have amassed a lot of rolling stock, have also supported the manufacturers, as much as any other group. How many people have 70 or more ore cars, or a fleet of 350 freight cars…not just one of the said types of railroad.

Check out, Andy Clarke, or Ken Brunt…they are willing to freely share their railroads with others…and there are others…too many to keep track of…

Fred Mills

Fred Mills. said: How many people have 70 or more ore cars,

I’m slooooowly building a fleet of eighteen HLW mini ore tippers; am now up to twelve. (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

The set up at Fr. Fred’s place is probably unique; it is not a club in the usual sense but does maintain a strong club aspect where anyone passionate about garden railroading is welcomed.

What I believe Fred had in mind when starting this thread was to illicit ideas from other LS folk on how they encourage others to become interested in the hobby. To be of value the thread should not be a debate of which way or who is best but simply how we, as LS railroaders can try to spread the gospel from the book of “Large Scale Railroads And Their Fun” As we do on our tracks, try to avoid derailments! (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

In the UK we have 2 principle societies that act as a focus for promoting the LS model railway hobby - The Association of 16 mm Narrow Gauge Modellers (16 mm NGM) and the G Scale Society (GSS). I am a member of the former and in the past the latter. Both organizations employ a network of geographically based groups to act as a means of bonding and encouraging members. The 16 mm NGM is focused predominantly on live steam and battery powered operators, the GSS those who prefer DC & DCC track power. However, there is a lot of crossover between the two groups due to how people start in one area of the hobby and migrate to others. The 16 mm NGM, despite the connotations of its name, caters for any of the larger scales - 7/8" to 1:22.5 that run on either 32 mm or 45 mm gauge track.

Within the individual geographical groups and members of the respective societies’ you will find a diverse range of subject matter represented. Individual members of groups are encouraged to hold “open days” where other members can attend and run their own equipment or even some provided by the host if they have none of their own. You do not need to have an operational line to be a member, or even your own stock to attend. We’re generally a pretty inclusive bunch over here. That and you don’t have to go to far to find a fellow hobbyist to share a days “playing trains”. UK has a somewhat smaller land mass and higher population density than North America.

Both organizations have well attended annual national shows that are supported by traders and the more specialized artisan manufacturers. In addition we have a number of fair sized independently promoted shows around the UK throughout the year that are focused on the LS hobby. The only problem with all of these is they by their nature cannot adequately portray the outdoor aspect of the hobby, just some well made limited size indoor layouts. To counter this it is becoming quite common that outdoor LS layouts are being set up an operated at the myriad of full size preserved railways in the UK, that are attended mainly by the general public. That and we have a tradition of model engineering societies in the UK that support the scales and subject matter that we are familiar with here. I’m not sure what more one can do to create additional interest, especially with the current economic climate. As the old saying goes - You can take a horse to water…

It interests me the concerns that are constantly aired about maintaining interest in the hobby. Is just that we want to just share the fun of the outdoor LS railway hobby - it’s not much fun on your playing on your own. Or, the more venial one of - if interest dwindles too far there will be no more new product developed or worse still there will be a glut of 2nd hand product that nobody wants and will go for a pittance (that last one can work both ways). There is also another type “operator” in this hobby that has not been mentioned so far, the one that appreciates their locos and stock for what they generally are - well detailed representations of the real thing. I’m really a collector at heart and quite like them on display as “shelf queens” as well as running them.

Good Morning Max,

Interesting write up and theory. Yes, there are many areas of this hobby, everything from collecting to research to operating to just “playing with trains”. The internet has opened research and exploration on every avenue and opened markets World wide. Sites like E-bay allows you to see the regional and even the true value of an item and the humorous part of what some people think their toys are worth. Its interesting how the different Forums and sites bring us together to share this interest in trains, railroads and/or toys that look and act like them. Largescalecentral seems to be the evolution of over 20 years of people learning to enjoy each others interest and personalities, while learning to embrace and respect our different parts of the hobby of Model Railroading.

.

I always tell people to come take a look at this site. You can share your interest with a few people or lots of people. You’ll find people gravitate to the portion of the forums where their friends gather. Some of us never meet each other in person and sometimes the joint interest on these computer screens bring people together in person.

.

Your statement - “However, there is a lot of crossover between the two groups due to how people start in one area of the hobby and migrate to others.” Boy, will

you find that on this Forum. Even this topic of just talking about the different groups. My wife and I have been a member of many different clubs and organizations around this hobby. Some you gravitate toward and some you learn to stay away from. Its just the nature of the hobby.

my indoors railroad layout occupies nearly 740 squarefeet.

apart from Fact: for one lazy old guy that is too much to build or maintain.

there are some more facts.

fact: more and more people live in condominions. (how many of those have more than about 400 squarefeet?)

fact: specially in urban areas gardens get smaller and smaller.

fact: people today have less disposable money, than we had 20 - 30 years ago.

another fact: specially in urban areas people are exposed less to railways, than we were.

modern fact: there are some very nice trainsimulators to be played on the couch… (even in small apartments)

the only future, i can see for laaarge scale, are clubs.

be they informal and based on a private layout, like Fred’s or Noel’s, or even the immense empires of Andy and (former) Marty with public open days - or be they organized clubs with some commonly owned layout or even groups, that have gatherings to unite multi-owned modular layouts.

i’ll repeat myself: for those guys at the age, where one looks for hobbies, because the children moved out (or into the souterrain) and sex is less practised, than spoken about, a backyard LS empire is much less probable/feasable, than it was for us.

for them clubs is the way to go!

(and for us it is the time to found these clubs, where they can join)

well, my two and a half cents…

All the above are good points as to why new comers are not flocking to the hobby. One I don’t think has been mentioned, this time around, is the intimidation factor. The young/novice/slightly interested person visits,looks and likes then starts asking questions. And right there is when it becomes a very delicate situation. I think 90% of us will answer their questions, with the best of intentions, with answers that overwhelm and intimidate.

Case in point. We had an open house at our railroad this Saturday and several people I didn’t know (guests of people we had invited) attended. One young man (30+) was quite taken with the logging trains and interested in the whole outdoor railroad scene. The questions and answers started and went something like this.

Wow, how much did all this cost?

Welll, it is a bit of investment but spread out over a long time.

Can I buy a locomotive just like that one?

Wellll, yes but no. that one has been extensively modified.

Wow, I could never do anything like that!

Wellll, yes you can but not on the first try.

Did you build “all” these buildings?

Welll, yes but you can buy buildings already built.

Isn’t that expensive?

Welll, yes it can be.

How much does track cost?

Wellll, it can be expensive, but you can buy used.

I don’t think I could do this, it cost too much and I don’t know how to do any of these things.

And I don’t really know anything about trains, but I like them.

Well now what needs to be said?? My reply was something like this.

Hmmmm, well yes Jim, it can be expensive but so is playing Golf, Fishing, or racing cars. It’s all about what you want to spend your time and money on.

As far as being able to do this stuff, nobody is born with the knowledge and ability it has to be learned. The learning is as much fun as the doing.

Now my railroad and rolling stock might look overwhelming to you but believe me it is a very modest railroad that has evolved over a 20 year time frame.

I have developed my skills and knowledge, with the help of lots of other people in the hobby. I started with a cheap train set and thought I would/could improve it.

Totally screwed it up, but I learned and went on. I have gotten much better but I still can totally screw up a project. It’s about the fun, the learning , and the making of friends.

Here is my number, call when your ready to start learning and I will help any way I can.

He said he would call because maybe he could get something going for him and his boy.

Here is hoping!

Rick

Rick Marty said:… The learning is as much fun as the doing…

The learning is the doing.

Or is it, the doing is the learning?

Brings to mind a couple decades ago when I worked at a HobbyTown USA and a family was in for the dad to buy a Traxxas nitro monster truck and accessories for something like four or five hundred dollars - one of the kids was asking about a Thomas the Tank Engine set from Bachmann but the parents said no because trains were too expensive.

Someone owes me a medal for not being a smartass to their faces.

Very interesting Post Mr. Fred Mills. " Really enjoy your train runs with all of the switching you guys do."

We been having the same kind of problems as most, that has been posted here. We have been trying to get new people to look at Garden R.R’s. in our area too.

Our Get-together train group has been slowly moving on to the big train world and like most have said, not much new stuff out there. So we are recycling used equipment to keep trains running.

We even had a How To internet live cam show, once a month for a few years with other Train guys on our live shows. We had a way of switching studios by going live with Jerry H.in Neb, Jim C. in KC, Bob G.in FL & Geo in NYC. That was a lot of fun and met a lot of people on those shows. We even tried to get West coast LSC chat to run a time table once a week with Fred Mills and others from the east Coast But that kinda of derailed.

Guess it’s like other things and hobby’s, Garden R.R.was a different type of Hobby in it’s hay day/time and us old dogs ( like us at 83) keep hanging on…

Anyway we still run trains with a few guys and try to post some videos once in a while, just in case younger gen. may watch them and want to join a club.

We did find one way with younger people… is try to bypass our Garden R.R. and take them out to the Ho Building to see lot of Trains running, animation and details. Then take them out to the Garden R.R. and watch there eyes light up due to the large size of trains running. Let them hold a box car to see how big they are.

That’s about the only way to keep our hobby going is with sharing the hobby with others.

Ok… we had our two-six-bits in for now. “Interesting posts guys.”

One of the issues facing those who try to promote and interest others to out hobby is many of those who are interested find that they are unable to get down to it right now. Still having young at home that require their attention and support, having to keep a job down - sometimes two jobs to keep the wolf from the door - and other distractions. not least the financial one.

I have two or three visitors that come from time to time - usually with children or grandchildren - who show a keen interest but do not seem ready to dip their feet in to water (or should that be ballast?) (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)The only conclusion I draw is to keep them coming as often as they care to and hopefully, they will get bitten by the LS railroading bug.

Before I started out some fourteen years ago I was invited to two nearby LS garden railways (now dismantled). The first almost turned me off! He had expensive live steam locos (Russell type) and small 0-4-0 diesels which were not appealing to me. The other extreme was a toy like consist or small wooden ‘wagons’ which was not cheap. There were expensive manufactured buildings and the track ran on planks, with roofing felt as ballast, supported by concrete wall blocks. He had to rebuild it all a year later. What I did learn from him was “how not to do it” so I did gain some experience. I was purely a watcher, never involved! Showing some disappointment, my wife suggested that I build my own line, which of course I did. Help can come from unexpected directions. (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

The second line was well established, over twenty years. A variety of European models with track at dirt level. A knowledgeable guy and helpful. Whilst I did not share enthusiasm for his choice of stock - I had discovered Bachman Big Hauler and Aristocraft on the internet - I did pick up useful advice.

I believe any would be garden railroader should be given useful operating advice but not told what he should run and where he should run it. Let him learn by seeing how others do it, noting their mistakes and of course making his own (few of us never made any). Part of the fun (achievement?) is planning and altering the layout, building and designing structures and that, as far as I see things, is often something that can be achieved with little expense, which is a good encouragement point to make. There are many, most interesting lines, seen here and on other places, which have little stock but a great deal of thought has been put into them. That is another good ‘selling point’.