Forums Power and Sound Power and Sound DCC
  • Topic: Wireless NCE vs Digitrax vs ?

    Back To Topics
    (0 rates)
    • April 18, 2018 4:22 PM EDT
      • Port Orchard, Washington
         
      • Posts
        2,416
      • Thanks
        98
      • Thanked
        306

      Greg,

      I like the idea of slightly different sounds from trailing units in say a lash-up of a GP9 and a GP30. Each would sound slightly different than the other, but with the older sound systems you don't really notice this difference. I'm sure Bob would agree that the advances in the last 20 years in large scale electronics has been interesting to follow. Now if Greg ever convinces TOC to go to DCC/Deadrail, I don't know what to say...

    • April 18, 2018 4:27 PM EDT

      •  
      • Posts
        9,393
      • Thanks
        249
      • Thanked
        862

      Well, first the GP9 sounds different from a GP30, but I have several ABA, ABBA, AABBBA consists of hood units, and have tweaked them to all sound a bit different. The decoders I use allow you to change parameters like rod knock, piston slap, etc.

      So when you stand within 10 feet, you hear each individual engine, and they all have slight differences in spooling up and down. I also use 2 speakers in most diesels and the effect is like going from mono to stereo.

       

      And, hold on to your seats, TOC is indeed investigating deadrail with dcc.... working on the portable system. Its too bad the NCE GWire cab went out of production, it was a pretty good idea, but trying to be compatible with AirWire did not help.

       

      Greg

      ____________________________________

      Be sure­ to visit ­my site, l­ots of tec­hnical tip­s and modi­fications,­ and you c­an search ­for topics­ and key w­ords.


      ­Click HERE for Greg­'s web sit­e
      PLEASE NOT­E: Please do NOT use private messaging, i­f you have­ a questio­n, feel fr­ee to emai­l me priva­tely, u­se regular­ email onl­y: greg@el­massian.co­m

    • April 18, 2018 7:26 PM EDT
      • Port Orchard, Washington
         
      • Posts
        2,416
      • Thanks
        98
      • Thanked
        306

      What, did hell freeze over? 

      I should have said two GP9's or two GP30's..

    • April 18, 2018 9:38 PM EDT

      •  
      • Posts
        14,810
      • Thanks
        2,764
      • Thanked
        1,619

      Greg Elmassian said:

      Well, first the GP9 sounds different from a GP30, but I have several ABA, ABBA, AABBBA consists of hood units, and have tweaked them to all sound a bit different. The decoders I use allow you to change parameters like rod knock, piston slap, etc.

      Piston slap is acceptable on a cold motor however rod knock is not acceptable period. My mom just found my best train porn mag under the bed and threw it away. I'm ready to get out of her house if she is gonna pull that kinda crap on me.

    • April 19, 2018 1:15 AM EDT

      •  
      • Posts
        9,393
      • Thanks
        249
      • Thanked
        862

      OK Craig, now your post makes more sense, I thought that is what you might have meant, but I took you literally.

       

      Yeah, 2 locos with identical sounds is noticeable. The QSI units I use allow you to add "wear factors" to the prime movers, which then results in a bit different sound.

       

      This is a partial list of the individual volumes you can control:

      Motor1 Idle Volume
      Motor1 Mid RPM Volume
      Motor1 Max RPM Volume
      Exhaust1 Idle Volume
      Exhaust1 Mid RPM Volume
      Exhaust1 Max RPM Volume
      Labored Exhaust1 Idle Volume
      Labored Exhaust1 Mid RPM Volume
      Labored Exhaust1 Max RPM Volume
      Rod Knock1 Min RPM Volume
      Rod Knock1 Mid RPM Volume
      Rod Knock1 Max RPM Volume
      Generator1 Idle Volume
      Generator1 Max RPM Volume
      Turbo1 Idle Volume
      Turbo1 Max RPM Volume

      So you can make one loco have a worn motor, and it will sound and act differently. Too much fun.

      ____________________________________

      Be sure­ to visit ­my site, l­ots of tec­hnical tip­s and modi­fications,­ and you c­an search ­for topics­ and key w­ords.


      ­Click HERE for Greg­'s web sit­e
      PLEASE NOT­E: Please do NOT use private messaging, i­f you have­ a questio­n, feel fr­ee to emai­l me priva­tely, u­se regular­ email onl­y: greg@el­massian.co­m

    • April 19, 2018 3:00 PM EDT

      •  
      • Posts
        9,393
      • Thanks
        249
      • Thanked
        862

      I hope I'm not derailing the thread Bob, just let me know. Was trying to convey the breadth of what you can do and control. It's a lot different world than just having sound or not.

       

      To me, it's like the first time I heard a really good stereo play a song I heard on the AM radio, there was so much more to listen to.

       

      Greg

      ____________________________________

      Be sure­ to visit ­my site, l­ots of tec­hnical tip­s and modi­fications,­ and you c­an search ­for topics­ and key w­ords.


      ­Click HERE for Greg­'s web sit­e
      PLEASE NOT­E: Please do NOT use private messaging, i­f you have­ a questio­n, feel fr­ee to emai­l me priva­tely, u­se regular­ email onl­y: greg@el­massian.co­m

    • April 20, 2018 8:55 AM EDT
    • (Moderator)
      • Your Host in Littleton, MA
         
      • Posts
        7,758
      • Thanks
        530
      • Thanked
        1,186

      Nope, not a threadjack.  Good to know the capabilities... 

       

      Thanks for all the info, gang.  Lots to evaluate.

      ____________________________________

      Bob, your Site Host and Benevolent Dictator.

    • April 20, 2018 9:12 AM EDT
    • (Moderator)
      • Your Host in Littleton, MA
         
      • Posts
        7,758
      • Thanks
        530
      • Thanked
        1,186

      Another question I have is about power supplies for these systems.  They need to ingest ~18v and 10+amps.  Tony's Train Xchange, for example, has an NCE power supply (18v, 10a) for $150.  On the other hand, a big of digging through Ebay and Aliexpress shows ham radio style 18v 15-20a supplies for < $100.  Would these work?  What do I have to look for in powering these sytems?

      ____________________________________

      Bob, your Site Host and Benevolent Dictator.

    • April 20, 2018 12:31 PM EDT
      • Port Orchard, Washington
         
      • Posts
        2,416
      • Thanks
        98
      • Thanked
        306

      Bob McCown said:

      Another question I have is about power supplies for these systems.  They need to ingest ~18v and 10+amps.  Tony's Train Xchange, for example, has an NCE power supply (18v, 10a) for $150.  On the other hand, a big of digging through Ebay and Aliexpress shows ham radio style 18v 15-20a supplies for < $100.  Would these work?  What do I have to look for in powering these sytems?

      If you went with dead rail this would be a mute point correct? I think the NCE Powercab just has a wall wart type plug in. Or are you thinking about track power? Greg would know better than I do, as I'm still trying to figure this all out as well.

    • April 20, 2018 12:34 PM EDT
    • (Moderator)
      • Your Host in Littleton, MA
         
      • Posts
        7,758
      • Thanks
        530
      • Thanked
        1,186

      Craig Townsend said:
      Bob McCown said:

      Another question I have is about power supplies for these systems.  They need to ingest ~18v and 10+amps.  Tony's Train Xchange, for example, has an NCE power supply (18v, 10a) for $150.  On the other hand, a big of digging through Ebay and Aliexpress shows ham radio style 18v 15-20a supplies for < $100.  Would these work?  What do I have to look for in powering these sytems?

      If you went with dead rail this would be a mute point correct? I think the NCE Powercab just has a wall wart type plug in. Or are you thinking about track power? Greg would know better than I do, as I'm still trying to figure this all out as well.

       

      I'm supplementing/supplanting my battery/RC with track power. 

      ____________________________________

      Bob, your Site Host and Benevolent Dictator.

    • April 20, 2018 1:45 PM EDT

      •  
      • Posts
        9,393
      • Thanks
        249
      • Thanked
        862

      So, when I started the hobby, people used plain old transformers, unregulated and AC, like what NCE still sells. You can still find them from many manufacturers.

       

      Like many things, I was told that was "good enough".

       

      Then I noticed a number of things that did not make sense. The first is that an ordinary transformer's output changes under load, in fact the industry standard how they are rated was not even mentioned or followed.

       

      I started running trains that took a number of amps, and noticed the speed sag, and worse, since one of the prime reasons for DCC is multiple trains on the same track, all of a sudden one train would vary in speed when another went up a grade.

       

      So, knowing what I know about transformers, I asked about using regulated supplies, and started investigating, since I knew regulated AC supplies were hard to come by (some DCC systems only take AC!!!). This led me to NCE for a number of reasons, by the way.

       

      I also noticed another situation, since I run standard gauge, I run some trains close to prototype speeds. I found some locos, like Aristo 3 axle diesels, would not run at prototype speeds at 20 volts on the rails, but needed very close to 24 volts. Many DCC systems could not manage this voltage, or would not tolerate a higher input voltage. Typically you lose 2-3 volts between input voltage to the system and what comes out DCC to the track. I found many DCC systems where your maximum input voltage was 27 volts, so you had to run close to the max input to get what I wanted for output.

       

      Back to transformers, a top quality transformer used to be rated for 10% sag in voltage under max load, but it's more like 20%. Here's the rub: In order to get a system that was capable of 10 amps and 24 volts to the rails, I had to hit it with 27 volts input PLUS 20% or 32 volts, OUTSIDE the maximum rating for the input.

       

      It became immediately clear to me, almost 20 years ago, that a regulated power supply was necessary to build a robust system that had the capacity to deliver full output (when needed).

       

      At that time, everyone thought I was nuts, just as nuts as trying the impossible DCC outdoors.

       

      Today, I think you will find 90% of the DCC "experts" will say you want a regulated power supply. (I guess I no longer have to live in the nuthouse!)

       

      In any case, yes, a regulated supply is what you want, no ordinary transformer. Inexpensive switching supplies will work fine, the "horrors" of "noise" of early designs, 40 years ago, are  gone. I usually stick with the Meanwell brand since they are widely available, have a large breadth of models and have been very reliable. There are even cheaper switching supplies, but you can get a Meanwell for under $100, way under.

       

      Maybe take a look here at my NCE 10 amp system: https://elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=322:my-implement&catid=55:dcc-general&Itemid=360

       

      My current zimo system has an even more impressive power supply, again Meanwell:

       

      Greg

      This post was edited by Greg Greg Elmassian at April 20, 2018 3:11 PM EDT
      ____________________________________

      Be sure­ to visit ­my site, l­ots of tec­hnical tip­s and modi­fications,­ and you c­an search ­for topics­ and key w­ords.


      ­Click HERE for Greg­'s web sit­e
      PLEASE NOT­E: Please do NOT use private messaging, i­f you have­ a questio­n, feel fr­ee to emai­l me priva­tely, u­se regular­ email onl­y: greg@el­massian.co­m

    • April 20, 2018 2:44 PM EDT
    • (Moderator)
      • Your Host in Littleton, MA
         
      • Posts
        7,758
      • Thanks
        530
      • Thanked
        1,186

      That's good to know, Greg, thanks.  I have a couple Meanwell power supplies for other reasons.  

      ____________________________________

      Bob, your Site Host and Benevolent Dictator.

    • April 21, 2018 8:31 AM EDT
      • Eastern Massachusetts
         
      • Posts
        1,227
      • Thanks
        9
      • Thanked
        108

      I have the same system as Greg and have the meanwell 30 volt 8 amp for a portable system and the 30 volt meanwell 20 amp for my RR.

      These supplies do not have a fan and the Zimo system puts 24 volts DCC on the track.

       

      For slow trains (Steam and early diesels), 24 volts would not be needed, but for high speed passenger 24 volts is great for speed, and high current is great for lots of lights in the cars.

    • April 21, 2018 9:06 AM EDT
      • Berkshire, Ma.
         
      • Posts
        764
      • Thanks
        155
      • Thanked
        49

      I have 2  Meanwell 24 volt 18 amp they have a fan and pot for voltage turn my down two 22 volts both have work fine at home and on club layout. oh and both were under $50 ea.

      Richard 

Forums Power and Sound Power and Sound DCC

    Icon Legend

  • Topic has replies
    Hot topic
    Topic unread
    Topic doesn't have any replies
    Closed topic
    BBCode  is enabled
    HTML  is enabled

Add Reputation

Do you want to add reputation for this user by this post?

or cancel

Ads by Google