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  • Topic: Aristo-Craft Six Axle derailing issues

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    • April 16, 2018 7:37 PM EDT
      • Defending the State of Exile! ,
         
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      David Maynard said:

      Steve, would it be possible to put a piece of rail where that dip is? You know, custom bend (in both axis) a replacement piece of track, so there is no joint to flex?

       

      Greg, I only have 1 6 axle Aristo diesel, and its an E8. I didn't get the extra weights for it, and so far its preformed like a champ, even with my grade and curves. But, for the benefit of those playing along at home, how much weight should one add to the various Aristo Diesels? I know too much weight is a bad thing, so there should be a target "curb weight" we are shooting for, for good performance without being destructive to the locomotive.

      I thought you stated that you were modeling nothing but pre 1915 narrow gauge in another thread ? Would you like to sell your E-8 ?

    • April 16, 2018 9:10 PM EDT
      • Blairstown, NJ
         
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      Ok, I’m chiming in, i recently did 2 Revo installs on a gentleman’s 2 Aristocraft Dash 9’s. I was test running on my layout, and one of the two engines kept derailing. Upon further investigation, I found that the axles which were meant to pivot were bound up. I loosened the screws slightly on the bottom of the truck and it did not derail. It was simply getting stuck. The engine tracked fine in reverse, but when the locked truck was in front it would derail. Hope this helps.

    • April 16, 2018 9:41 PM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      Yep, on my page I indicate that is not the preferred location for the "fixed" gearbox, even though many were set up that  way from the factory. All the axles should pivot somewhat, bound up usually indicates that the main motor block casting has warped.

       

      Greg

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    • April 17, 2018 6:40 AM EDT
      • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
         
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      " Rooster " said:
      David Maynard said:

      Steve, would it be possible to put a piece of rail where that dip is? You know, custom bend (in both axis) a replacement piece of track, so there is no joint to flex?

       

      Greg, I only have 1 6 axle Aristo diesel, and its an E8. I didn't get the extra weights for it, and so far its preformed like a champ, even with my grade and curves. But, for the benefit of those playing along at home, how much weight should one add to the various Aristo Diesels? I know too much weight is a bad thing, so there should be a target "curb weight" we are shooting for, for good performance without being destructive to the locomotive.

      I thought you stated that you were modeling nothing but pre 1915 narrow gauge in another thread ? Would you like to sell your E-8 ?

      No. She pulls the tourist's "dinner train".

       

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    • April 24, 2018 2:39 PM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      Dear TJ, I sure would like to know if the "conversion" to effectively 2 axle trucks (4 wheel) with "center flanges" has worked. If it has, it would also be helpful to others as to what diameter you turned the wheels down to.

       

      Thanks, Greg

       

      TJ Weber said:

      Paul,

       

      Code 250 track is used inside, everything outside is code 332 on the mainlines.  Paul is correct in the similarity of methods, but unfortunately the large temperature swings make it impractical to glue down the track, and previous attempts have failed.  Was outdoors testing a few units, and found that the only practical solution for us was to remove the center wheel, removing it and in essence making a long 4 wheel truck resolved all the tracking issues.  My father and I are now planning to turn down the center wheel treads to a diameter where they are little more than aesthetic, this will solve our issue in a practical manor. 

      I appreciate everyone's input on the subject.  I agree that our trackwork is not perfect, but external conditions preclude us from being able to take all the advice given on how to improve it.  The six-axles have been an issue for many years, and now they should finally be able to take their proper place pulling tonnage on the Mojave Sub! 

       

      TJ Weber   

       

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    • April 24, 2018 7:08 PM EDT
      • Oley, Pennsylvania
         
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      Greg, 

      Project has been placed on the backburner for the time being while I figure out an effective and efficient way to turn these on the lathe, the chuck is not being overly cooperative.  I will be sure to update the post when I've come to a working solution, 

       

      Thanks

      TJ Weber

       

      This post was edited by TJ Weber at April 24, 2018 7:08 PM EDT
    • April 24, 2018 9:01 PM EDT
      • Defending the State of Exile! ,
         
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      Watching

    • April 24, 2018 11:17 PM EDT
      • Deer Park, Washington
         
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      Bruce Chandler had a thread on shaving down a wheel flange.  You might check with him.

      This post was edited by Steve Featherkile at April 24, 2018 11:32 PM EDT
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    • April 25, 2018 2:11 AM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      I understand the dilemma, you need to make a tool, that is a rod with a taper at one end, and tap and thread a hole in it, you chuck this up and then mount the wheel on it.

      Besides giving you a good mount to get to any part of the tread or flange, it will also true up the wheel a bit.

      I would suggest leaving the flange or totally removing it. With the long wheelbase, leaving it will work better in my estimation.

       

      Greg

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    • April 27, 2018 11:28 AM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      Well, 4 pages of suggestions and help.

      3% grades means grade transitions, lots of them and usually too "sharp" in the breakover points.

      Track on concrete does not immediately imply smooth, level tracks, in fact in most cases it is the opposite.

      After all the inputs, it would be nice for a followup on the solution tried and the results. I have a 3.4% grade and a 5.5% grade and I got derailments at the transitions where I initially made a sharp grade transistion. Removing the flanges will not help this particular problem, and if you are going to reduce the wheel diameter, I would guess you need to take almost 0.1" off the radius, which I think will loop pretty strange.

       

      TJ, you probably have lots of other things to do, but please remember this thread and let us know how you solved this common problem at some time in the future.

       

      Greg

       

       

      TJ Weber said:

      Hello all,

       

      Most of the problems occur on curves, and have had some problems on switches.  I'd also note that most of our railroad is on a 3% grade, and a very solid subroadbed of concrete.  Greg, no locked axle issues.  I have Aristo-Craft six-axle locomotives, and they all suffer from this problem to varying degrees, and derail in different locations, although there are a few consistent locations.  And since the railroad sits on a concrete subroadbed and many area have been ground smooth.  


      Thanks

      TJ Weber

       

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    • April 28, 2018 12:42 AM EDT
      • Cleveland, , Mississippi
         
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      Greg, I had the problem with my A/C Dash 9 derailing as it went into a curve in the same spot. I found out that if there is as little as a 1/16 rise in the track before a curve the front axle will be picked up by the second axle as it rolls over the rise and derails it. The second problem I found with the six axle A/C is that thermal expansion will unlevel and twist the track even after leveling. The twisting of the track by thermal expansion and contraction will cause problems with the middle axle derailing, mainly because there is no vertical give on all three axles where it would be if they all had springs. The front axle is leaning one way and the rear axle is leaning the other way, the center axle is somewhere in the middle,  picked up and derails. In my opinion, that is where USA locomotive have superior trucks. The sprung axles give a far better traction.

    • April 28, 2018 12:45 PM EDT
      • San Mateo, California
         
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      Ron Hill said:

      "Greg, I had the problem with my A/C Dash 9 derailing as it went into a curve in the same spot. ...."

       

      Ron, What is the diameter of that curve?

      Thank you,

      -Ted

    • April 28, 2018 2:08 PM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      1/16" of an inch should have been handled by the flanges, and also the side to side pivoting of the gearboxes should handle "crosslevel" problems well.

      So, you need to find out where this happens, and I have found that often you can run very slowly and see the issue.

      Also be sure you have found where it happens, as I have recounted many times, I (thought) I had a problem at a switch, but the loco had derailed do to track gradients some 10 foot earlier.

      Another thing is to check your loco and make sure 2 of the 3 axles swivel easily and the last one is pretty well fixed with very little flexibility. My personal preference is for the "fixed" axles nearest the fuel tank, but it can work oppositely.

       

      You need to check all this. Of course, getting the loco right will solve a lot of problems, then you can sniff out the bad locations in track.

       

      If you are getting track warp from the heat, you should take measures to allow expansion without warping.

       

      Greg

       

       

       

       

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    • April 28, 2018 5:39 PM EDT
      • San Mateo, California
         
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      All axles are free (none fixed) to vertically rock somewhat in my Aristo-Craft first generation SD45s.  You can push at the top of the loco so it lists to one side, and then run the loco down the track, and it uprights itself.

      -Ted

    • April 28, 2018 6:26 PM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      Yep, there was that period... people complained that their locomotives listed to one side. Now they are all listless. 

       

      It took a while for Aristo to figure out that (as I have chanted as my Aristo mantra) their "clever" design was affected by manufacturing, quality control, and in this case reality.

       

      So, some locos would eventually right themselves, but the majority would get a list. So then the rubber pads started appearing, under 1 gearbox, under all three, the black pads, the white ones, the thicker ones and the thinner ones and all combinations thereof.

       

      Eventually most people agreed that one gearbox/axle should be pretty well fixed, but of course then the controversy whether it was the "inside" or the "outside" axles.

       

      The bottom line is that there is no "pat answer" for someone with one of these, since the assembly varied over time, and then you add in the normally warped casting causing the middle axle to be out of line with the end ones... so someone asks how to improve these locos, and they cannot get one simple answer that works every time. It's relatively easy to find out what to do, but you have to observe the operation and find the issue(s).

       

       

      Greg

      This post was edited by Greg Elmassian at April 28, 2018 6:34 PM EDT
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    • April 29, 2018 7:21 PM EDT
      • Cleveland, , Mississippi
         
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      Ted, the radius is 8'. On the Dash 9 I have all the axles do not rock. one is stationary. 

    • April 29, 2018 8:46 PM EDT
      • Deer Park, Washington
         
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      Ron Hill said:

      Ted, the radius is 8'. On the Dash 9 I have all the axles do not rock. one is stationary. 

      That's good to know.  I thought that there was something wrong with mine.   

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      Some people try to turn back their odometers.  Not me.  I want people to know why I look this way.  I've traveled a long way, and some of the roads weren't paved.  Will Rogers.

    • April 29, 2018 9:01 PM EDT
      • Defending the State of Exile! ,
         
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      Steve Featherkile said:
      Ron Hill said:

      Ted, the radius is 8'. On the Dash 9 I have all the axles do not rock. one is stationary. 

      That's good to know.  I thought that there was something wrong with mine.   

      How do you now there isn't Steve ?

       

    • April 29, 2018 9:02 PM EDT
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      Know

       

    • April 29, 2018 10:33 PM EDT
      • Deer Park, Washington
         
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      " Rooster " said:
      Steve Featherkile said:
      Ron Hill said:

      Ted, the radius is 8'. On the Dash 9 I have all the axles do not rock. one is stationary. 

      That's good to know.  I thought that there was something wrong with mine.   

      How do you now there isn't Steve ?

       

      Because Navin repaired them and said they were fine when he sent them back to me.

      This post was edited by Steve Featherkile at April 29, 2018 10:34 PM EDT
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      Not only does my mind wander, sometimes it walks off completely.

       

      Some people try to turn back their odometers.  Not me.  I want people to know why I look this way.  I've traveled a long way, and some of the roads weren't paved.  Will Rogers.

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