Large Scale Central

LGB Turnout wiring advice

I recently acquired a big box full of 16050 and 16150 LGB turnouts that I intend to use (at least some) on my new elevated layout I’m building. They all have switch motors on them, and several 51750 control boxes were included. The brochure cover shows in little print 14-17V AC, The instruction brochures with the switches and the control boxes provided adequate diagrams on wiring, (mostly), but I haven’t been able to find any information on the AC voltage other than the 14-17V reference on the cover. Can I use the 24 volts AC output on my power supplies do I have to step it down? And probably 24 gauge wire? I’m sure some of you folks may have more accurate advice and experience. Would appreciate the help. My Bridgeworks power supplies have a 24 volt AC outlet that I can use as the power source if it’s not too much for the control box and switches. This is the first time I’m using electrically controllable switches. My present layout has a few manual turnouts so I’m a newbie on this. Thanks for the help.

I think you will be fine, just don’t hold the toggle in place a long time, I think their “boosters” use a higher voltage but for a short duration, like a capacitive discharge system.

Greg

I use the LGB switches and drives on 4 turnouts in my main yard.

The transformer I use is a LGB 5003/110. The AC output on that is 16VAC 7VA and it works fine with the orange LGB switch box.

It only takes a brief press of the button to snap those points over. If you hold it longer than needed you can hear the strain in the switch motor.

Rich

The EPLs are not AC they are DC . The 5075 changes AC to DC half-wave by diodes in the switch box.You would be better off using 14 to 16 volts .

Richard, have you heard of damage from 24v as opposed to the voltage you are recommending?

If so, just a few more diodes in series can drop the 24v down enough.

I assumed that Rich understood that the LGB typically uses AC input and 2 diodes to give 1/2 wave AC of the right polarity to throw the switch.

According to George Schreyer, input to the LGB motors can be 16-24V… see this extensive page by George:

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/lgb_1600.html#controls

LGB even makes/made a booster when you did not have enough oomph…

I’ll stand by my recommendation.

Greg

I had about 6 on my old layout ran just fine on 12 volt DC. I used a double pole double throw center off spring toggle switch.

Don

Sorry Greg did not realize i had to ask your permission to post. i forgot you are the know all. I have the same transformer as Todd and also a RR concepts setup on 13 volts pure DC

and the EPLs work fine. LGB states 14 to 16 volts

No, you are taking this the wrong way, and there is no reason for your nasty response. You are apparently the individual who is offended.

Rich asked if he could use 24 volts. He is the person who started the thread, asked the question I am answering.

LGB motors use momentary half wave AC to operate, so the voltage “tolerance” is a bit looser, it’s more important to not leave power on for too long than the voltage, i.e. they cannot handle continuous power even at the lowest of their rated voltages.

George Schreyer is a well respected engineer, in fact literally a rocket scientist, designed stuff for NASA.

If he says this works, it works. All Rich wanted was an answer if he could use 24 volts. I’m trying to help him with an answer. I don’t know why you are upset because I don’t agree with you.

Greg

Greg, I forgot about George Schreyer’s site. Thanks. A lot if useful advice. I followed him frequently when I ran a bunch of Aristo stuff. Always good information. Great LGB turnout advice. Didn’t know he was an engineer.

Actually literally a rocket scientist, worked for Rockwell I believe and designed a number of things for the shuttle and earlier rockets. Met him and talked for several hours a number of times, and I was honored that he came and visited my place. A great guy, but great engineer too.

I have actually read every page on his site twice, went to every page and then did the whole site again, funny how you miss some things.

His site and his helpful, but no nonsense approach was inspiration to me.

Regards, Greg

… one of those threads again…

but ontopic:

Rich, to the same question a german electronics engineer gave me this advice:

use the 24 AC, but to be a little more on the safe side, put two switch or signal motors in paralell, where possible. (to be switched together)

he knew my (then) layout, and referred specially to my passing sidings, where the switching of just one turnout does not make sense.

but he mentioned, at working the switches with reed contacts, i should not use higher voltage.

he added a lot of electronics-chinese, but that i neither understood, nor remember.

reed contacts typically cannot handle high currents and inductive loads, the contacts can heat and weld or burn.

They do make some heavy duty ones, like the larger ones used for frog power in Train-Li switches.

Why do you bring up reed contacts though? Not in the circuit we are talking about, the power is sent to the motor directly.

Greg

Since the EPL drive is just a small DC motor, a short pulse of 24 volts will not harm them. Greg’s suggestion of not holding the momentary switch on too long applies to any voltage these motors are given as after stopping a motor you are applying voltage to a motor that does not turn and a winding can be burnt out even at 12 volts.

So glad that there are guys here that understand electronics more than I. Dan and Greg, thanks. Progress is slow here. Snowing again!(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-frown.gif)

I think the thing here is, which is a bit weird to some, is that the motor is basically physically, mechanically “stalled” when it completes the throw.

There was a lot of discussion about “stall currents” in loco motors and how big they could be way back in the beginning of large scale. The discoveries and publication of the actual currents when a motor is mechanically stalled was a revelation back then.

This is how the high current DCC decoders came about, and how it explained the USA trains locos burning out decoders.

The bottom line here is that the “stall current” of a motor can be a lot more than the “running current”. How much more depends on a lot of factors, but it is ALWAYS more. In the case of LGB switch machines, it does not take a lot to burn them up if you leave the current applied continuously.

Also, remember that it is the combination of voltage and amps that is power, and running at a lower voltage can just draw more amps, so this hopefully explains why in this case 24 volts does not make much of a difference over 16, it’s the extreme case of stalling the motor and drawing way more power than the motor can handle.

I think this has been an interesting discussion, and hopefully it dispels some old myths and misconceptions.

Regards, Greg