Hi Guys:

Will there be future product additions to large scale or has large scale had its peak of product development ?

PIKO seems to be the most active although none of their product is of interest to me personally.

I wish that Bachmann would produce a standard gauge Virginia & Truckee Genoa, Reno and Inyo just like Rivarossi did but I doubt that will happen.

Are the other scales flourishing in comparison to large scale? What gives with large scale? Is it the cost of trackage? Are too many folks now downsizing their personal residences and moving to condos?

What are your thoughts?

Norman

Norman.

The top end of the market is booming.

Worldwide there have been lots of new live steam locos in 1:32nd scale, 1:20.3 scale, 16 mm scale and 1:13.7 scale.

A couple of promises in 1:29 that have yet to materialise.

Cottage industries in all scales are flourishing.

I don’t know Norman but Large scale enthusiasts seem to follow a bell curve in the hobby. We start off buyign everything we can as our empire grows then we reach a saturation point our interests become more directed and we start selling off stuff we don’t use. I am in that final stage and have sold off some stuff that now is a “why did I buy that” item.

G scale takes up a lot of space and money unlike the smaller scales and not as many folks run it due to those 2 issues. I can’t imagine a model RR company spending piles of dough to develop a certain engine or rolling stock and having it fall flat. It is a huge gamble.

The price of new items is crazy. Stores like Trainworld have BLOW OUT SALES of LGB stock and a boxcar is $80… Too rich for me. Luckily for many of us there is a thriving preowned market that allows many of us to get in and play.

In the end it is all about the kids actually wanting to get off their computers and build something interesting and lasting like a model RR. Interest and new products rely on DEMAND for them.

Looks like a lot of product at the east coast train show. One would think prices would be lower, but guess not. I’m not in the market for anything, got plenty of stuff and quite a bit that has not been run in a while. Repaired some of the locos I made in the past, may give them a run and see if I fixed them or not.

I have always been a loyal buyer of LGB product, but normaly cannot afford it when its new. So the used/collection/estate market is my friend. I also got to be good friends with Dave Watts and the staff at his old shop, and the owner of the new reborn shop Zionsville Train Depot. It is there that I have gotten many of my items. From reports from the big east coast show are that it was packed with people! Hopefully lots of buying people. I went to the national garden railway show in Cincy a couple years ago. While the day we went wasnt busy as it was Saturday/general public open day, I saw lots of new purchases being loaded into vehicles as folks packed up to start for home. When Zionsville gets in a LGB, or any new collection/estate to sell, it goes fast. So that tells me the market is healthy for atleast the older German production LGB and other older items. I think the high cost of track and new items is a sign of the times and can discourage a newbie, but in the great information age, most know to seek out items on ebay or other less expenisve trains. I think the magic of LGB was lost when the original company was no more. Now its just a part of on conglomerate toy company just like Marklin is now. Before it was a family run firm, with the younger generation taking over from thier fathers. Both Wolfgang and Eberhard were train buffs at heart. This showed in the quality of the products they produced. For better or worse they set the stage for the rise of garden railroading in the USA. The live steam side is going crazy for those that can afford them, same for pretty much anything else that makes it into production. Hopefully the AML GP60 will see the light of day this year, my friend wants a NS version. I might be tempted as well since I worked for them at one time. Once those are out, whoever has the tooling to the old Aristo Roadrailers needs to make a run in the various NS schemes as this was the GP60’s original use back then. Atleast for now, the used market is a buyers paradise with affordable prices if one has patience to haunt ebay and train shows. I hope we see more new product, see the return of USA prototypes from LGB beyond the Mogul and White Pass diesel and new models of diesels yet produced by anybody, espicaly smaller 4 axle units for smaller layouts. A GP15-1 would be nice, or a MP15, SW1500, USA updating thier SW with roller bearing side frames and sealed beam headlights ect. Mikie

The latest round of new LGB products is astonishing, given their recent history. I was in my local LGB dealership last week and was, quite frankly, astonished at the new stuff and its sheer quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exEP5WCrV0o

I suggest that anybody looking for a new 0-4-0 German steam loco to run as a ‘preservation special’ train take a peek at the new ‘Franzburg’ loco. It’s about as near to being a true-scale model - no rubber rulers here - as I’ve ever seen, and yes, you can bet that I’m impressed by it. It really is a gem.

Not as much as I’m impressed by the new Train-line Br99 Mallet, though - that too is a true IIm model and with full ZIMO digital sound it’s a crowd-puller for sure… the matching passenger cars, at aroud 2/3 the price of LGB, are all-metal, with full interiors and, trust me, drop-dead gorgeous.

Meanwhile, back at Chez-tac [play on words for those of you who also shoot, BTW], I’m masking up the body sections of a cheap and cheerful LGB Schoema diesel to convert it to the appearance of a Hungarian NG loco. I carefully selected a truly gruesome shade of yuk green and off-red, as per original, cut some vinyl GÁV letters and numbers, removed the moulded-on grab iron and rails and replaced them with proper tubing version, cut out the fake grilles and replaced them with expanded aluminium mesh, fitted AccuCraft chopper couplers and Brandbright gladpaws, and STILL have change out of a hundred bucks, even buying it from Germany.

Fitting full battery r/c and sound will be a doddle, too, thanks to the micro-size of modern components - even a 2" 2W speaker…but THAT, on the other paw, triples the cost…

Of course, I already have the matching passenger cars, the subject of an article in the UK Garden Rail magazine a couple of years back, and well-worth a look to see that you really CAN make silk purses out of [Chinese[ sow’s ears.

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

Yes, that is a pretty locomotive. The thing is, many of us on this site model North American prototypes, and while LGB, Piko and others do some wonderful European equipment, they are still very light on NA equipment of any verity.

Poks GenerationNext keeps talking about the future re releases of some equipment, and other rumors and whispers are out there about other stuff coming out, but what we need are real products. New products, not just repaints of existing products.

Judging from the size of the ECLSTS, things are still tough out there. Some vendors had smaller booths then they did in the past, and there was some empty floor space in the vendor’s hall. Maybe when things aren’t so tough out there we will see more new equipment coming out.

My storage areas are almost at capacity, so there is very little I would have room for if something new were to come out. But if it really caught my eye, I would make room for it.

David, I’m not denying for one second that the focus these days seems to be concentrated on European prototypes rather than US.

There is a VERY simple reason for this, and please don’t take offence when I point it out.

LGB and Piko are the popular end of a truly GIGANTIC market in Europe, and I mean that in every way. The ECLSTS probably attracts a couple of thousand people at the most, with a high proportion of gawpers. The Sinsheim show alone attracts around 20000 LS model fans with pockets full of money, and with manufacturers there to help them spend it all.

Even the number of companies making nothing more than accessories and general layout dress-up merchandise is eye-numbing - last time I was there there were over eighty such stands - all doing well, thank you very much. And get this - nothing was basement quality. Not a single thing.

By comparison, in the USA you have one almost defunct manufacturer whose second-coming has never actually happened, yet, maybe forever, and you still have USA Trains, doing their best to survive the tempest. It has to be said that the USA is overall a victim of its own success. It’s a HUGE country, with HUGE spaces, and HUGE railroads to cross them. The locomotives are matchingly HUGE, and so are ALL the cars to go behind them. In general, model layouts are HUGE and fit in backyards that are also HUGE, so asking a manufacturer to make a whole range of correspondingly HUGE models is never going to work again, and I wonder just how long the sole manufacturer can carry on.

I know that you guys laff at us stuck over here in crowded little Yoorup, but that’s OK. I often look at our good friend Jerry Barnes’ great layout, or Gregs, and just wonder at it all. Here in our village there is just ONE backyard that even goes near Jerry’s, and that cost the happy mortgage owner well over $2M fifteen years ago. So Europeans have small backyards, with small[ish] layouts, and generally small models that fit in them - but by the many many thousand. It is therefore a Euro-centric manufacturing paradise, and has been in spite of the recent storm weathered by LGB or whatever they call themselves]s now. PIKO are going like proverbial bats out of hell - their products are excellent, robust, realistic and affordable, simply because there is a demand that Herr Doktor Wilf has latched onto and provided for. In spades.

How big?

Well, here in UK just the one association of which I am a member must have membership well into five figures - my membership number is 9402, and I’ve been in for years - heaven knows what they are up to now. And then there is the G Scale Society - fronting the next LS train show just up the road from us. A two-day event, it is expected to attract around 8 - 10,000 visitors. and it’s one of five such events in the year.

There are, though, many over here who DO model a layout with a North American flavour, like Friend Alan and Mike Morgan, Dave Buckingham and many others, and, to a certain extent, me, already have all that we are ever likely to buy. Fraser, secretary of the 16mm Associaition, who lives up in Scotland has a US-theme layout that would make any of you jealous, with around 3/4 of an acre filled with trains. But as I noted, he lives in Scotland, where land costs 75c an acre… Another logging line layout, featured in the only monthly large-scale magazine on the planet - an English product yet - had a forty-five foot long and eight-foot high double-track wood trestle, for gosh sakes, and that was only a small section of the whole thing.

My main interest, apart from Gauge 1 and 16mm live steam, is Fn3 and I have all the geared loco models that exist so far, and few rod locos to match, and for the most part, build my own cars, either from Phil’s gorgeous kits, or from Starbucks coffee stirrers. I already HAVE all the big diesels in 1/29th that I could ever need - ten of them, in fact, although heaven knows what happens when nine of them go wrong…

So there you have it. Stepping up to the large-scale modelling railroad plate in the USA is going to take a HUGE investment and HUGE work effort to match - ask Lewis Polk, who tried it.

And lost.

Best

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

Thanks for the knowledgeable insight. There is a lot there to put in perspective.

Tac mentioned one thing I see as a newbie in the market place. The variety (in prototypes) is so wide in the US that we all have a niche we enjoy. No manufacturer can ever build the variety to please us all. Large Scale itself is an issue in that now with all that variety you have to model it in different scales. Because of its shear size and cost the people who will be in it are limited. then their desires for what they want are wide ranging and the scale issue means mass manufacturing is a gamble. Adding to that is the scratch building world which further limits sales and t isn’t hard to see where it is going. I for one have bought very little production stuff and like won’t. aside from track I see myself building everything. Unlike the smaller scales were on a modest layout you might model an city block or two or a main street. In large sale there is only so much room for most people. Also its large size makes it very easy to scratch build exactly what you want.

It is likely the mass production side of the hobby will not be kept alive by my dollars. Its a catch 22. I want it to survive but I am in the hobby because I can do so much on my own accord.

What I noticed at the show was that most of the dealers still had lots of new old stock from all manufacturers, both living and dead, which I’m sure they would like to see go before replacing it with new release items.

tac, I agree with your assessment of the NA market, and appreciate your insights on the UK and Euro market. You did, however, forget to mention Bachmann in the NA LS market. Although Bachmann is into so many scales and gauges, that they can absorb the downturn of the LS market more easily then a manufacturer that is only in LS.

I do not laugh at small layouts, I have one that is diminutive compared to many here on LSC. And that is kinda my point. Many of us have small layouts, so new, small equipment, would have a market here. Sure there is also a market for the latest SD98-4ACW, but there is also a market for a good Prairie steam locomotive, or a decent Atlantic type too. Although the market may not be as large as a manufacturer needs to do the R&D and make new molds for, I do not know. Thats where the cottage industry like Mark has can come into play and take off. Make limited runs of 3D printed kits for what cannot be had from the big name manufactures.

The other thing is, the big names could probably sell more units, if they didn’t insist on putting in all the wiz bag electronics that many of us do not use. I used to pick up LGB Porters for less then $100, usually like $75, because they didn’t have the wiz bangs in them. Now the new Porters have the wiz bangs in them, and they are no longer at what I would call a reasonable price.

You also mention detail parts. That market could take off here too, if the parts were more accessible. A vendor that puts together an easily navigable website, chocked full of detail parts could do well. Especially of they would supply parts for equipment that is no longer manufactured.

I dunno. I see gaps in the NA market that could be filled, and if done properly someone could make money filling those gaps. Many threads have been devoted to, or sidetracked to, lamenting these gaps and how they aren’t being filled. And that is the basic point of my ramblings.

Goes along with the bigger is better mentality in the states. Look at the smaller scales, how many different brands of Big Boys do we really need, or brands making thier version of the F unit. The smaller work a day engines get left in the shadows. Yet most layouts are probably of the smaller variety and cannot handle a Big Boy realisticly. Granted they made versions that can go around 18" curves, so even the 4x8 layout modeler can run one, it doesnt look good on those curves. LGB realized this when they stuck with smaller prototypes thru the early years, even the popular Mogul is a very small prototype in real life. Go look at C&S #9 thats been restored to limited operation. I could never run any of the larger diesels, my alloted space for a garden railway isnt large enough. I might squeeze in R2 curves on 3 of the sides but the fourth, that goes around a tree, requires R1. That engine by LGB is absolutly beautifull. Only time will tell if the good old style LGB quality is there with prolonged use outdoors. There is a balance between durablity outdoors and scale detail. My friend has some of the 20.3 stuff from Bman, beautifull but my lord is it fragile. Both drive wise and detail wise. USA diesels are also beautiful but they need to find different material for hand rails and detail parts. How about an updated GP9 from USA, with low nose, ox yoke style intake filter, 4 exhaust stacks ect. That would cover the more modern shortlines and rebuilds by BN and ICG. Do high nose versions of the GP30, 38 and SD40, the SRR, NS and NW modelers will clamor for them and it would take a minimum of new tooling. I suspect the large scale market could be grown here in the states, but it will take more than what USA is doing. I feel the market shrunk once LGB stepped away from the scene and never really came back for most modelers. I am sure the high cost of track doesnt help, but there are alternatives and everybody I meet in large scale are savy shoppers. Several I met while hanging out at a large scale display layout had no clue where to go to purchase large scale, having only seen N, HO and Lionel 3 rail in their local shop. Once shown the sealed drives, no oil slung on the carpet, they were hooked on finding a starter set in large scale. LGB really needed to have produced a non sound mogul like the 2119d, with 2 coaches, circle of track and a 2 amp transformer as a top model starter set. People will always complain about the high prices, but in the end the product still sells. I agree it will take more that USA to recapture the stateside market. Espicaly considering thier focus on larger models that take larger curves. Most newbies are not going to fork out the coin for the track those require, let alone the cost of the freight cars and locomotive. Most of the garden lines in my area are smaller, usualy sport either LGB equipment or the smaller USA switchers or Aristo engines. Smaller freight cars and tight curves are the rule. Its that market that needs to be further tapped, that is where Piko is going nuts, filling that void left by LGB in the states. Mikie

I have a vision…

With the advent of 3D printing, companies will develop reliable drive trains and modelers will chose from a print library the loco/car they want. No longer will manufacturers try to guess the fickle wants of which loco/car will sell today.

Yes we will adapt.

David Maynard said:

tac, I agree with your assessment of the NA market, and appreciate your insights on the UK and Euro market. You did, however, forget to mention Bachmann in the NA LS market. Although Bachmann is into so many scales and gauges, that they can absorb the downturn of the LS market more easily then a manufacturer that is only in LS.

I have all the Bachmann geared locos in LS, a Connie and a ten-wheeler too [even tho’ it’s in the wrong scale’]. Well bully for Bachmann, sez I, BUT -

1. Their Davenport is cute, but VERY small - way too small for anything but an industrial layout - but then, so was the prototype.

2. Their last Fn3 steamer, the C-16/19/21 cost a small fortune and is VERY location specific.

3. Their next-to-last steamie, the Forney, cost almost the same as a full-size one…

4. Their articulated loco was so rare in real life that those that bought the model did so just so they could do a hey lookit-that! feature on their layout.

5. The centre-cab dismal bombed like an anvil dropped in a vacuum.

6. The K-27 was such an astounding bargain that they sold like ice-creams on July 1st, and then, uh, they stopped making it. A pal of mine bought one of each - that’s eight? Just to have them on his shelves. I guess that the shock of having what eventually turned out to be THE LS bargain of the century was too much for them. By way of contrast, my tin version, made by AccuCraft in the early part of this century, actually cost me five times what the Bachmann version eventually did, and is almost too heavy now for me to lift with the help of Mr Grove.

7. The original Shays needed re-trucking after a while until they figured out that a lot of folks actually DO NOT READ the prolific and vital instructions that come with the model, and replacement metal power trucks were needed to maintain the motion.

8. The original Climax self-destructed its own drive train if something stopped one or other of them.

9. The original Heisler had a ‘catch-up’ crank that clanked when it should have whooshed, and whooshed when it should have clanked.

10. The teeny ‘indie’ was so teeny that without a pound or so of shot hidden somewhere inside its teeny spaces it could hardly haul itself around…

What would you have Bachmann do next?

A mainline loco?

Which one and in what scale?

Never going to happen, my friend.

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

Hi Todd:

Yes , that is what I did as well. Bought lots of stuff which now is surplus with no market for. So the extras will act as spare parts or future kit bashing projects. I our defence , we had no idea of what the future products would be so how could we properly plan our purchases?

" The price of new items is crazy. " , my opinion as well. I will still buy if there is something I really really want.

Those were exciting days nevertheless of Bachmann and Aristo creating new product.

Still a great hobby but I guess we are the trailing generation of enthusiasts.

Norman

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I don’t know Norman but Large scale enthusiasts seem to follow a bell curve in the hobby. We start off buyign everything we can as our empire grows then we reach a saturation point our interests become more directed and we start selling off stuff we don’t use. I am in that final stage and have sold off some stuff that now is a “why did I buy that” item.

G scale takes up a lot of space and money unlike the smaller scales and not as many folks run it due to those 2 issues. I can’t imagine a model RR company spending piles of dough to develop a certain engine or rolling stock and having it fall flat. It is a huge gamble.

The price of new items is crazy. Stores like Trainworld have BLOW OUT SALES of LGB stock and a boxcar is $80… Too rich for me. Luckily for many of us there is a thriving preowned market that allows many of us to get in and play.

In the end it is all about the kids actually wanting to get off their computers and build something interesting and lasting like a model RR. Interest and new products rely on DEMAND for them.

tac, yes, but Bachmann is in the LS market. I didn’t say that they did all (or any) of the right things, I was just saying they were there. I have the first run Shay, and even following their instructions she has shed 2 wheels and then after repair, she shed a whole truck. I also have the Bachmann 2-4-2 like I mentioned, and she really needs to be stuffed and mounted in front of my station. She cant pull enough to pay her fuel costs.

I feel that I struck a nerve with you simply by mentioning that they are there. What would I have them do next. Anything I mentioned. A small Prairie or Atlantic, for less then the cost of a good used automobile, would be nice.

I agree, with Mike, smaller stuff would find a home on a lot of set ups. I don’t need an articulated steamer, I need some smaller steamers, like I mentioned in my other post. I have a bunch of Aristo 40 foot boxcars, and some USA 40 footers. They work well on a small railroad. I don’t see me ever owning any of the USA auto racks. They are really nice, but way too big for a little railroad like mine. Piko could do well if they had better stuff. The Piko boxcar is 1:32, too small for most of us, with most of the details molded on. That doesn’t look as good as separate detail parts. And their 0-6-0, and Mogul are really toy-like looking to my eye.

Bachmann could score some serious brownie points simply by upscaling some of the incredible locomotive’s they have done in On30, the 2-6-0, the Railbus, the Porter, just to start, and sell them for a reasonable price.

But they won’t, their market focus seems to be fixed on fancy short production run models of specific large steamers. I expect the next LS model to be a varient of their four axle drive, maybe an EBT Mike.

David Maynard said: I feel that I struck a nerve with you simply by mentioning that they are there. What would I have them do next. Anything I mentioned. A small Prairie or Atlantic, for less then the cost of a good used automobile, would be nice.

David - not at all - I mentioned that with the exception of the Indie, I have them all, and have done for years.  My Shay, bought from the Train Shop in San Diego within a month of it being on sale, is still a flawless performer, as are my later three-truck Shays and Climax.  The Heisler was subjected to the 'foam-clamp fix', and now works the way it should.  

My point here is that the days of Bachmann producing their 'Spectrum' line of 1/20.3 scale seem to be over.  There are literally no more of their freight cars on sale here in Europe - anywhere that I can find, anyhow.  The beautiful C-whatever is priced out of the market for those who want a smaller, more widely distributed 'off-the-shelf' loco that fits into just about any locale, whether it be narrow gauge or standard.  IMO, the comment about Bachmann making an EBT mike is wishful thinking in the extreme, and my guess is that it will stay that way, simply because this time Bachmann might just get everything right at once, and we'll end up with a masterpiece of modelling, just like the K27 was, but at a more realistic price for today's levels of dollars'worth.  IF it ever happens, expect an MRSP of around £$2250 - $2500...

Friend Walsham had it right in the second post - the top end is bubbling like a crazy thing, and the top end, sadly for many, involves the big stuff made in small numbers and is invariably live steam.  LGB's stuff is way too Eurocentric, but then, AristoCraft and USA Trains never made a SINGLE European model - ever.  How parochial is that?

There is not a single source of affordable passenger cars in 1/20.3, unless you count $300+ as affordable.  For people like me, this usually means cutting our cloth to suit, and my Fn3 passenger train has only three cars in it, instead of the eight or nine that it should have.  Nor are there affordable kits, so folks like me build our own out of stuff that other folks throw way, or find something secondhand and make a fix that way.

The UK market is thriving simply because the physical size of the actual NG over here makes for small models that are easily afforded by most, or RTR that is of exceptional quality and not a lot of money - at least, by our overpriced standards way of looking at things here in UK. 

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS 

[BLOCKQUOTE]AristoCraft and USA Trains never made a SINGLE European model - ever[/BLOCKQUOTE]

How quickly we forget the Aristo Class 66 UL dismal . .