Greetings LSC

Having had to tear down my first layout when we sold the house, I’m ready to plunge into planning the next layout. Part of the target terrain includes a 20x20 patch which slopes down to the main loop.

I intend to use it as a logging/scenic route, loosely reflecting the Mount Tamalpias and Muir Woods Railway (the crookedest railroad in the world).

Planning is good, right? So, the question I have is what’s an effective way to measure the contours of the terrain? Right now, string and a yardstick seem like the lowest tech way to go, but I’d like other options.

Suggestions?

I don’t think it costs to much to rent a laser and measuring stick (its not called that) from a local equipment rental place for a day. With that in hand you lay out a grid on a flat horizontal plane at the highest point with stakes and string. The grid could be say one foot squares. Then you find the lowest point of the terrain. You mark the point where the laser hits it on the measuring stick as zero. Then you map each point on your grid recording the number on the stick. These will be getting smaller as you climb. You can right at this point subtract your new reading from the zero elevation number and that will give you a positive elevation above zero. So if the lowest point is 6.9 feet and you measure a point at 5.8 feet then the elevation at that point is 1.1 feet above zero. You do this for each point. With these points plotted on a map you would then be able to draw contours by connecting same points of elevation in the approximate shape of the land. The tighter your grid the more shots you take the more accurate and closer your contour lines will be.

Not all numbers will be exact likely very few will be so you fudge by going under a point or over it. Basically your going to average points to give you your contour line. So if a point is 1.1 and another is .9 you run your contour line at 1.0 by going just under the 1.1 and just over the 0.9. This should give you a very good idea. Depending on how steep this area is and how accurate you want it will determine the number of points. on a 20 by 20 at one foot intervals If I did the math right should yield 439 shots (I am no mathematician but you have to shoot on both X and Y axis zero lines).

Michael,

Really for such a small area string (with bubble level) and a tape measure is all you need to figure your contour. From your logo I assume you’re here in the SF Bay area. Have you thought about joining the Bay Area Garden Railway Society (BAGRS)?

Dan’s way really is more reasonable for a small area. I went the higher tech route. You could also in your planning lay these points out in a program like sketchup I am sure and that would give you a 3d rendering. I don’t use it but I imagine it would.

Prior to laser equipment available for rent, this was quite often done using a water level.

One “How-to” description is on my website http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/html/surveying.html including a link to how to assemble a water level http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/html/how_to_make_a_water_level.html

BTW using the ladder track method for the roadbed meant, on our layout, fewer points to establish what was needed. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

@ Devon,

Using SketchUp would work, after one spends a bit of time learning SketchUp. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

As we all know it is best to keep track grades to a minimum. 2% is usually good for the ups and downs. There is an equation that so many inches of track and rise equals percent of grade but it escapes me at this point.

String fixed at one end with a bubble level attached to it and slid along with a yard stick at the other end will give you a good idea of your contours.

A method I used early on was to take a 8’ long 2x4 and with a grade tilt indicator sitting on it I could see the grade percentage. I then pounded a stake into the ground to the proper level and that was the next spot to rest the the end of the 2x4 on and so it went.

you could also take soem track and lay it down and let your eye be the judge. The best balance would be to have the track near level adn have the topography rise and fall creating the illusion of a rugged terrain.

Happy RRing

If Michael is modeling the Mount Tamalpias and Muir Woods Railway I would assume he’s got a Shay. The grade on the Mount Tamalpias and Muir Woods Railway averaged 5% and up to 7% not that you have mimic that exactly, but in a 20 X 20 area that may be a reality. Please keep us up to date on your survey and what type of motive power you will be using.

Thank you all for the answers, and so quick. Yes I do have a shay, and I just love to see it in operation. I need to watch track radius as it does not like really tight circles on the gear side.

I do indeed imagine that I will be going up to 5% or more if I can get away with it, but I’d like to keep that to a minimum. As space is tight, the number of turns I can get in will be limited, though I may resort to gaining elevation in a tunnel, stacking a couple of layers. Not really consistent with the system being modeled, but will work and will add visual interest to the layout.

I have attended one or two BAGRs events and look forward to more!

For about $35 I bought an electric level from sears. One of the read outs is %. My grades have been reduced to 2%.

8’=96" that’s close enough to 100 for a rough guestimate; 2" of rise every 8’

John

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

@ Devon,

Using SketchUp would work, after one spends a bit of time learning SketchUp. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

I have fiddled with it but it is not easy to learn for me at least. Problem is I don’t really do things that way so taking the time to learn it isn’t worth it. But I would like to, someday I just need to sit down and learn it.

Are we trying to make a contour map of the land or are we trying to determine grade percentage of the track. If trying to determine the track layout and grade percentage then my way is a total waste of time. I thought we were trying to produce a topographic map showing contours and lay of the land so that we could then plan out the track.

If trying to determine grade percentages for a given track layout there are free online software programs for track design. i used one to workout grade percentages so that I could make a grade crossing.

John Caughey said:

For about $35 I bought an electric level from sears. One of the read outs is %. My grades have been reduced to 2%.

8’=96" that’s close enough to 100 for a rough guestimate; 2" of rise every 8’

John

The Cigar Smoker down near Seattle got me on of those before they were available (at a realistic price) in TGWN, it is the cat’s meow. Especially handy on curves to get the actual grade without having to interpolate.

1 inch rise in 8 ft is just over 1%.

It’s a bit of both. I can more or less eyeball the rise in 20 feet, which is from about waist level to a bit above eye level, so call it three feet rise in the first fifteen feet. That’d be a 20% slope if I wanted to go straight up, but of course I will not do that, and neither did the Mount Tamalpias Railway. Nope, I will loop back and forth (no switchbacks allowed).

So I will lay out the terrain and then figure out where I can lay track and where I must re-contour. Willing to do so, but preferring not to do so TWICE

Careful! Eyeballing a slope can lead to major surprises.

I see, I misunderstood your intention. Don’t do what I suggested that is way more complicated than you need. I like John’s level idea that reads percent. I might have to get one.

Also you can use a track laying program like any rail https://www.anyrail.com/index_en.html to lay it out and it will give you percentages.

Devon Sinsley said:

…

Also you can use a track laying program like any rail https://www.anyrail.com/index_en.html to lay it out and it will give you percentages.

Yes, it certainly will. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)But four+ years of experience with AnyRail - including active participation on that forum - has shown that establishing track elevation points is one of the “how do I get accuracy” questions from many new users.
For Michael’s size of layout - 20x20ft - it should not be too much of a learning curve. And if he needs specific help on that … I do have an email address and quite often provide layout solutions to those who ask and have an interesting project. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

The Wye at the mine …

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Part of a 132x99ft layout. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

I played with Anyrail for about 5 or 6 hours to layout my track plan and there was a learning curve but I finally figured out how to get all the track connected and to a steady percentage and with my minimum curves. I set the limits and was able to get my grade crossing height and then messed with virtually raising and lower track until I got steady smooth percentages. I am no expert by any means. i got it to do what I wanted and haven’t looked back. It is also a very simple double loop design.

It’s the “double bowtie” and the gravity cars that have me really riled up!