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    • June 13, 2019 1:58 AM EDT
    • Rooster, re-read the response from Phoenix re: connecting grounds and what Tom asked me if you are confused

    • June 11, 2019 8:03 PM EDT
    • Greg Elmassian said:

      Yes Tom, at the very least, you need to have the same ground reference, thus the suggestion to connect the grounds.

       

       

      Best, Greg

      What ???

      Never mind .....

    • June 10, 2019 10:29 PM EDT
    • Yes Tom, at the very least, you need to have the same ground reference, thus the suggestion to connect the grounds.

       

      The iffy point is if the 5v from the decoder will "reference" to the 5v in the Phoenix.

       

      In the strictest sense, if the grounds are connected together, and "going to ground" is the trigger (as I believe), then most likely either 5v should work, but often "should" translates to "maybe".  ;-)

       

      Let us know how it works out, but I suspect it will work either way. If you get into trouble, I would use a 5v supply to the hall effect referenced to the Phoenix.

       

      Best, Greg

    • June 10, 2019 8:21 PM EDT
    • " Rooster " said:

      All the hall sensors I have ever worked with USE a 5v reference signal with a ground. The 3rd wire will be pulse generating or square wave pattern on a scope. Nothing more than an on/off signal passing a magnet. However I have never worked with them in a model train application only 30+ years in the automotive repair industry which uses them quite frequently. 

      With that said I will let the experts help you out Tom as I don't want to be an attack dog here or post fowl language.

       

      Good luck and please post your results

       

         Rooz

       

       

       

    • June 10, 2019 4:42 PM EDT
    • Greg Elmassian said:

      yep, you will need not only a regulated voltage, but to be sure to use the Phoenix ground and I would regulate the 5 volts from the supply that feeds the Phoenix.

       

      Otherwise the ground reference won't be right for the Phoenix.

      Greg

      ++++++++++++++++

      Greg - Here's the response I received from Jim/Phoenix Sound........does it sync with your comments?

      If the hall sensor is to be powered by  the Massoth power decoder, you may only need to connect the Hall output (chuff) to the Phoenix Chuff trigger input. If the Phoenix sound board is to power the hall sensor then the ground connects to Phoenix ground/trigger ground, the hall output to the phoenix chuff input and the hall +5V to the Phoenix +5V (Volume switch +5V connection is a good place to grab that).

       

       

    • May 22, 2019 11:02 PM EDT
    • yep, you will need not only a regulated voltage, but to be sure to use the Phoenix ground and I would regulate the 5 volts from the supply that feeds the Phoenix.

       

      Otherwise the ground reference won't be right for the Phoenix.

       

      Greg

    • May 22, 2019 10:21 PM EDT
    • Greg Elmassian said:

      It really depends on the hall sensor output (which normally goes to ground), and the phoenix requirements for the chuff trigger.

       

      It might work as is (clock is really the hall effect output) and the phoenix chuff trigger needs to be pulled to ground as I remember.

       

      Might work as is, or you may have to "amplify" the current with a single transistor.

       

      Double check the assumptions in #2 sentence and if right, hook them up. Don't overvoltage the hall sensor most work fine on 5v

       

      Greg

       

      Greg - I sent an email last Monday to the Phoenix Sound folks and awaiting their advice.......if a pulse generator unit has been successfully connected to one of their decoders I'm sure they'll know about it, or can also say whether it will work or not.  It appears your thoughts are to attach the pulse generator wires to the regular two chuff inputs to the Phoenix decoder (ground and chuff) and the third wire to some 5volt (Massoth decoders use 6.5 volts) connection on the decoder.......that's what I also thinking but not sure which connection to obtain it.  So I think I'll wait for the Phoenix folks' response before I try anything.

        

      Tom

       

       

    • May 22, 2019 10:13 PM EDT
    • Todd Brody said:

      I have a set of pick-up trucks that had a Hall pick-up mounted.  The axle has a rubber "tube" in the center that rotates with the wheels.  This counter-rotates a "tube" magnet mounted on an axle just above that spins in front of the sensor.  When I spin the wheels and place a compass next to this tube magnet it goes N/S/N/S/etc.

       

      It would seem to me that any Hall set-up would also require a magnet that spins in proximity to teh sensor, and perhaps, you could just replace the Hall sensor with a reed switch and wire that accordingly.

       

      Todd - I just posted a photo of the Massoth Pulse Generator Unit that I installed in the LGB Uintah..........the round magnet is mounted onto the axle and rotates over the three wire sensor.

      Tom

       

    • May 22, 2019 10:09 PM EDT
    • David Maynard said:

      I would contact Phoenix. It would seam to me that they should know.

       

      David - Yes, I've already sent them a message asking for their advice.  But there may be some folks on this forum that have already dealt with this issue, so thought i'd "pulse" them here too.

      Tom

       

    • May 22, 2019 8:20 PM EDT
    • I have a set of pick-up trucks that had a Hall pick-up mounted.  The axle has a rubber "tube" in the center that rotates with the wheels.  This counter-rotates a "tube" magnet mounted on an axle just above that spins in front of the sensor.  When I spin the wheels and place a compass next to this tube magnet it goes N/S/N/S/etc.

       

      It would seem to me that any Hall set-up would also require a magnet that spins in proximity to teh sensor, and perhaps, you could just replace the Hall sensor with a reed switch and wire that accordingly.

    • May 22, 2019 8:02 PM EDT
    • All the hall sensors I have ever worked with USE a 5v reference signal with a ground. The 3rd wire will be pulse generating or square wave pattern on a scope. Nothing more than an on/off signal passing a magnet. However I have never worked with them in a model train application only 30+ years in the automotive repair industry which uses them quite frequently. 

      With that said I will let the experts help you out Tom as I don't want to be an attack dog here or post fowl language.

       

      Good luck and please post your results

       

         Rooz

    • May 21, 2019 9:42 PM EDT
    • It really depends on the hall sensor output (which normally goes to ground), and the phoenix requirements for the chuff trigger.

       

      It might work as is (clock is really the hall effect output) and the phoenix chuff trigger needs to be pulled to ground as I remember.

       

      Might work as is, or you may have to "amplify" the current with a single transistor.

       

      Double check the assumptions in #2 sentence and if right, hook them up. Don't overvoltage the hall sensor most work fine on 5v

       

      Greg

    • May 21, 2019 8:14 PM EDT
    • I would contact Phoenix. It would seam to me that they should know.

    • May 21, 2019 8:41 AM EDT
    • Does anyone have experience using a three wire pulse generator/hall sensor on a sound decoder without a specific connector for it?  I've installed a Massoth Pulsed Generator into an LGB Uintah steamer originally to connect to a Massoth XLS Sound decoder which has the three pin connector for the pulse generator.  But now my customer instead wants me to install a Phoenix P8 sound decoder which as a connection for a two lead chuff reed switch.  The Massoth decoder documentation indicates the three lead pulsed generator connections as:  Ground; Clock; 6.5 volts.  So, I'm not aware whether the Phoenix decoder can support a pulse generator without a clock feature?

      Thanks

      Tom

      Note:  I've posted a photo of the Massoth Pulse Generator unit that I installed into the LGB Uintah, for those not familiar with pulse generators that produce the chuff input into a decoder's clock connector.

    • May 21, 2019 9:49 PM EDT
    • Yep, the clock 2 thing is the major lesson learned here, agreed.

      Also, many mystery CV's although I asked you if you got the CV sheet from the Massoth dealer, and found many of the settings did not make sense.... values out of range according to the documentation, etc.

       

      Anyway, we all learned something, but my biggest takeaway, is I won't go near a Massoth decoder, unless I get the service tool and rewrite everything, and it seems that many DCC systems have difficulty programming some Massoth units. With a Zimo and an NCE, if I cannot program it, then to me, I really look for an alternative. This experience and other of my Massoth experiences have not been good, and I will not purchase a Massoth system to make things work.

       

      Greg

    • May 21, 2019 8:21 AM EDT
    • Greg - Specifically, the Massoth S Decoder's Installation Manual states on page 14:  ......."Clock2 is the connector for a second pulse generator, e.g., for cog wheel steam loco Ballenberg.  A reed switch (illustr. #9) can be used as a generator input in this case."  So, the Manual is incorrect about using Clock2 for a reed switch.......doesn't work properly as Roger Bush had found.   Roger did not send me a copy of the read out of all the decoder's CVs that you prepared, instead I did my own using the Massoth Service Tool.  I didn't review all the CVs but focused on adjustments to the CVs I thought would make the simulation chuff work better.    Roger complained that the simulation chuff started before his locomotive even started to move, so first testing an S Decoder I had in stock, I installed it on my test stand motor block, and the S Decoder's Simulation chuff worked fine.  Without having Roger's locomotive to adjust the chuff rate to the locomotive's movement, it would be hard to make the appropriate CV adjustments on Roger's decoder........he did provide me with the voltage his loco would start to move, 6.5 volts.  But his primarly interest was to use the Clock2 and a reed sensor for creating the chuff sound, so that's what I then focused on and received guidance from my Massoth Dealer in Germany.

    • May 20, 2019 6:20 PM EDT
    • That's great Tom... so again my takeaway is you cannot use clock 2, even though nowhere in the documentation this is stated.

      Also, I assume you got a copy of the printout of the CV's as provided to Roger, and there were ones set to very strange values, did you notice this?

       

      Greg

    • May 20, 2019 4:30 PM EDT
    • Greg Elmassian said:

      Make sure you archive the complete list of CV settings, so if the decoder is ever reset, you can set it back.

       

      Am I correct in assuming it is now using the Clock 1 input for the chuff trigger.

       

      In any case, congratulations!

       

      Greg

      +++++++++++++++

      Greg - I'll respond for Roger since I set the CVs for him.  Yes, I found out from my Massoth Dealer in Germany that Clock#1 can work with a two wire reed sensor besides the Massoth three wire pulse generator/hall sensor.  I used the first two connectors:  Ground; Clock1.  The Massoth unit also uses the third connector +6.5v.  I provided Roger a Massoth three wire cable so he can solder his two wire chuff sensor to it and then just plug it into the decoder's clock connector instead of having to solder the wires to the bottom of the decoder.  I also provided him a print out copy of all the decoder's CVs read out:  Contains the current setting of each CV along with their default and the setting maximum and minimum range available.........a nice feature of the Massoth Service Tool.     

    • May 20, 2019 3:03 PM EDT
    • Make sure you archive the complete list of CV settings, so if the decoder is ever reset, you can set it back.

       

      Am I correct in assuming it is now using the Clock 1 input for the chuff trigger.

       

      In any case, congratulations!

       

      Greg

    • May 20, 2019 6:26 AM EDT
    • But now you know how to tame the beast. The hard part is over.